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+--- Thread: Bill Zeller - How to do a suicide (/showthread.php?tid=109705)
Re: Bill Zeller - How to do a suicide - Ted King - 01-10-2011
Greg wrote:
If the individual doesn't see hope for recovery, then there ain't any, in my experience. What others think doesn't matter.
I think that very often love and caring matter to them very much, but sometimes it's just not enough to mitigate the pain enough.
Re: Bill Zeller - How to do a suicide - Greg - 01-10-2011
Ted, respectfully (and I respect you quite a bit), suicide is like anything else that someone might want to do. If someone gets in their head that's what they want -- what they ought to do -- then that's what they will do.
Re: Bill Zeller - How to do a suicide - Ted King - 01-10-2011
Greg wrote:
Ted, respectfully (and I respect you quite a bit), suicide is like anything else that someone might want to do. If someone gets in their head that's what they want -- what they ought to do -- then that's what they will do.
Sorry, I guess I didn't express myself very well. I totally agree with you. I just meant to say that though what others think may not ultimately matter in the final decision to end one's life if one doesn't see hope for recovery, that others do love and care for them probably does matter to them very much.
Re: Bill Zeller - How to do a suicide - Greg - 01-10-2011
It may matter to them, yes.
Re: Bill Zeller - How to do a suicide - $tevie - 01-10-2011
I don't see any point in imagining that a person who is hell bent on suicide views anything the same way we (the presumably mentally healthy) do.
Re: Bill Zeller - How to do a suicide - Greg - 01-10-2011
$tevie wrote:
I don't see any point in imagining that a person who is hell bent on suicide views anything the same way we (the presumably mentally healthy) do.
Well, the hell-bentness is what I'm referring to. If they want to, they will. Love and help and Jesus aside.
Re: Bill Zeller - How to do a suicide - kj - 01-11-2011
Greg wrote:
[quote=$tevie]
I don't see any point in imagining that a person who is hell bent on suicide views anything the same way we (the presumably mentally healthy) do.
Well, the hell-bentness is what I'm referring to. If they want to, they will. Love and help and Jesus aside.
I've seen people go from wanting to, to not wanting to, personally, many times. So just because they want to, doesn't mean they will. And because they want to now, doesn't mean they always will. Like it or not, love, help, jesus, and even admission to a psych ward, do sometimes help. kj.
Re: Bill Zeller - How to do a suicide - Greg - 01-11-2011
First off, take your "like it or not" and put it where the sun don't shine. While you're at it, do the same with your faith.
If somebody wants to, they will. If their minds change, they won't. That someone kills him or herself says nothing about the help that was offered. Yeah, nothing is 100%. But the whole "gee, if only they'd seen a doctor or friends or Jesus" is a crock.
Re: Bill Zeller - How to do a suicide - kj - 01-11-2011
Greg wrote:
First off, take your "like it or not" and put it where the sun don't shine. While you're at it, do the same with your faith.
If somebody wants to, they will. If their minds change, they won't. That someone kills him or herself says nothing about the help that was offered. Yeah, nothing is 100%. But the whole "gee, if only they'd seen a doctor or friends or Jesus" is a crock.
Listen, if you were to say there isn't always anything that can be done to help people, there'd be nothing to argue about. But if you're going to say there's nothing that can be done when someone wants to commit suicide, I'm going to say B.S. And that's what you said. Btw, I'm not the one who posted the religious post, so don't act like I'm "shoving it down your throat".
>>That someone kills him or herself says nothing about the help that was offered.
If people did what they could, then they have nothing to feel guilty about. If they didn't, then hopefully they learn from that. But to say nothing can be done...that's dangerous. kj.
Re: Bill Zeller - How to do a suicide - Greg - 01-11-2011
If someone wants to commit suicide, they will. Not sure why you have such a hard time accepting this. If someone wants to drink a soda, they will. If someone wants to surf the internet, they will. Someone wants to kill herself, they will.
You invoke Jesus to me, then you've got no sense. Don't tell me Jesus (or any other mythological figure) can influence someone. I had enough of that, and the idiots out there who try to wave their faith in front of me and others like it's some kind of tonic can take a hike.
You want to try and change the mind of a suicidal person, go right ahead. But don't you fucking dare to use the notion of guilt around me. Guilt!? Over someone else's decisions? Take your juvenile notions away from me. Suicide is a selfish, personal decision, and no amount of hand-wringing or misplaced guilt will change the fact that only the person who committed suicide is responsible for the decision.
In my experience, people who call hotlines do not want to commit suicide. People who seek out friends and family, doctors, and medication do not want to commit suicide. People who want to kill themselves, do.