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Re: Hybrid interest article - BigGuynRusty - 12-20-2006
RX, many of my GM buddies who worked on GM's electric car have talked about a diesel generator all electric drive vehicle for years. If GM got behind it, they estimate it could be done for under $25K, much lower.
Using current smaller cars/mini-Utes, and Europe's diesel tech (waiting on the USA to make diesel fuel sulfur free), a half liter or smaller diesel to run a high efficiency alternator, a light weight Lithium Ion battery pack, the new flat high efficiency electric motors, and regenerative braking, it could be done.
Also, they mentioned "Hydraulic Accumulators" invented by the EPA for delivery vehicles, it would make for a very high mileage UPS/FedEx truck!
You're are right about the acceleration! It is stunning with electric motors! Just like steam engines, electric motors can put out maximum torque at zero RPM! Want a demo? Clamp the chuck of your beefiest drill in a vise, nold the handle tight, pull trigger. It will almost rip your damn arm off!
BGnR
Re: Hybrid interest article - Racer X - 12-20-2006
I got knocked of a dock we were building when a monster 1/2" drill motor with a bit in it caught a spike in a wooden float we didn't see. The cheater pipe handle spun around and caught me in the back of my knees, and I went right on over.
We used the same drill motor chucked up to the nut on a hand cranked winch to haul boats out of the water. Big old aluminum cased Craftsman 1/2" drill motor from probably the 40s or 50s.
We have diesel electric busses in Seattle, and from 0-5, they are faster than my big block car.
Re: Hybrid interest article - Filliam H. Muffman - 12-20-2006
A decrease in demand for hybrids might be attributed several things: decrease in tax breaks, CA HOV lane permits are running out, the market of people that care about reducing-CO2/global-warming is saturated, people that make statements like "The entire concept of hybrid vehicles is a sham" are getting too much of a voice when they do not really understand the concept, etc.
Re: Hybrid interest article - Pat - 12-20-2006
As far as diesel goes, the cost is even higher.
As an option, diesel engines are more expensive than gassers. The new 01/07 emissions standards are going to increase that cost even more. As an example, the '08 Ford diesel option for their light duty trucks is ~$1600 more than the current '07 option, which is already ~$5300.
The particulate filters will need servicing. Plus at low RPMs, the exhaust is not hot enough for the regeneration process, so it dumps raw fuel into the exhaust stream to bring up the temps. Depending on your driving style, could affect mpg a lot, or not at all.
The whole regeneartion process results in.....more CO2. So, NOx and particulate emissions go down, but CO2 goes up.
There are several different ways for the emissions reductions to happen, the above is just one, but is definately being used. The Euros have yet to commit.
Euro diesel is NOT sulphur free, BGnR. Maybe you were referring to ULSD? Which was a reduction from LSD which was <500ppm to the current <15ppm. It's at the pumps. 10/15 was supposed to be the deadline for at the pump availability. The new engines, built after 01/07, REQUIRE ULSD. You will wreak havoc on the emissions system by using LSD. In California, we've had a low aromatic blend for some time, and ARCO has actually been distributing ULSD for years. Quality of the lubricity additve pack varies widely too. The new Chevron/Unocal makes for some loud injectors on my Ford, requiring the use of an additive. I won't even go near the cheapo stations. Saving 10cents at the pump is not worth injectors @ $300 each.
And, has anyone seen the price of diesel lately? About a 30% premium over regular unleaded. Bio is even higher, unless you make your own. But the whole tax situation with that is a nightmare. They will start cracking down on the home brewers eventually.
While using the diesel as part of a genset makes sense, maybe not so much for passenger vehicles. The size of an electric motor to provide 100% of power to the drivetrain is going to be quite large and heavy. Works on heavy equipment and such where the equipment is expected to last >20 years and size/weight is not an issue. In addition, not many people drive in a way that is consistent with placing a constant load for the genset to work efficiently.
Simply put, at this point in time, I think the costs outweigh the benefits. Your ROI is even further away on diesel hybrid.
Re: Hybrid interest article - Filliam H. Muffman - 12-20-2006
[quote Pat]The whole regeneartion process results in.....more CO2. So, NOx and particulate emissions go down, but CO2 goes up.
If an engine that uses regeneration gets better mileage than one that does not, the total CO2 output per mile has to go down. If you are saying that regeneration engines get worse mileage, do you have some statistics to back that up?
Re: Hybrid interest article - Pat - 12-20-2006
[quote Filliam H. Muffman][quote Pat]The whole regeneartion process results in.....more CO2. So, NOx and particulate emissions go down, but CO2 goes up.
If an engine that uses regeneration gets better mileage than one that does not, the total CO2 output per mile has to go down. If you are saying that regeneration engines get worse mileage, do you have some statistics to back that up?
I made no statement about better mileage. I'm only looking at the diesel portion of the engine. Current predictions are for a loss, albeit minor, in mileage compared to the pre 01/07 engines. While used in a hybrid, the total package may get more mileage, but the diesel portion itself may get less than before.
Then again, no one really knows 100%. The only people using ULSD right now are in engines that were not designed for it. Those engines that were designed for it have not hit the market.
As for statistics yes. I'll look around, this has been discussed ad nauseum in forums dedicated to diesel trucks, both big and small. Cat, Detroit, Navistar have all released tech notes on expected performance and issues arising from the new emissions and fuel.
Re: Hybrid interest article - Pat - 12-21-2006
One note, as far as mpg loss.
This is the second phase of current diesel emission reductions. The first was for 01/03 engines. Those losses are well documented, plus the number of reported problems went up. Of course they became more reliable after some of the kinks were worked out, but, those engines are now being phased out, and the mpg never came back.
Re: Hybrid interest article - spearmint - 12-21-2006
[quote Filliam H. Muffman]A decrease in demand for hybrids might be attributed several things: decrease in tax breaks, CA HOV lane permits are running out, the market of people that care about reducing-CO2/global-warming is saturated, people that make statements like "The entire concept of hybrid vehicles is a sham" are getting too much of a voice when they do not really understand the concept, etc.
Just like soccer moms and their kids Hybrids do not deserve the HOV lanes. They are meant to reward carpooling and not for rewarding certain types of vehicles. The tax breaks are baloney too. Since the taxes will be taken from others why should I subsidize someone's choice of vehicle? Every tax break has to be made up elsewhere because city, state etc. are still going to have the same rising budgets.
Re: Hybrid interest article - Pat - 12-21-2006
some info from the DOE
"In order to meet the 2007 emission standards for heavy-duty diesel engines, the EPA makes the following assumptions regarding the performance of NOx adsorber emission control technology:
Conversion efficiencies will improve so that the overall loss of fuel economy will be only 2 percent: 1 percent for the fuel-rich cycle and 1 percent for pumping losses.
EGR equipment will be optimized as a result of the improved efficiency of NOx adsorber emission control equipment. The optimized EGR air-to-fuel mixture will provide a 1-percent increase in fuel efficiency, which will offset the 1-percent loss in efficiency from the fuel-rich exhaust cycle.
The application of the new emission control technology will provide a 3-percent or greater increase in efficiency by offsetting the fuel efficiency reductions that were incurred to meet the 2004 standard when diesel engine manufacturers manipulated fuel injection timing to optimize for low NOx emissions.
Based on these assumptions, EPA predicts that there will be no loss in fuel efficiency associated with the NOx adsorber catalyst designed to meet the 2007 emission standard.43 Although experts agree that this is possible, it has yet to be proven.44 Current field tests reveal a 4- to 5-percent fuel efficiency loss with current state-of-the-art technology, which still requires EGR and timing control. Experts agree, however, that NOx adsorber catalysts are expected to improve and that the associated optimization of EGR and timing control will eventually be achieved."
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/ulsd/chapter1.html
The EPA assumes that technological advances will offset the new losses, plus make up for the '03 losses. Yeah right.
The manufacturers say it will be a minor loss, no more than 2%. Which is better than the ~5% loss for '03. But, combined, that is a 7% reduction in fuel economy.
It's a wait and see. New engines + new fuel, who knows what the real outcome is going to be. I doubt we will get back to pre '03 mileage though.
I'll be honest, I have not looked into the effects on smaller engines, such as the VWs. I would imagine that since they get such great mileage, they are running pretty lean, which would increase their NOx emissions, making compliance harder. I can't remember if it was VW or MBZ that was going to use the urea based system for emissions control. So. I admit that my argument may not apply to smaller engines, other than they will have to meet the same standards, and therefore probably have the same problems. But that is only an assumption, and I remember my Odd Couple reruns. When you assume............
Re: Hybrid interest article - BigGuynRusty - 12-21-2006
I meant to say low-sulfur.
Small, efficient flat electric motors are here, please don't compare a small diesel hybrid to a 6 trillion ton earthmover.
You work for GM? They almost killed off diesel engines in the 1980's.
I know one thing that will happen, it will take the Japanese/Chinese/Koreans/Europeans to show us how to build it before the USA gets off its butt.
BGnR