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+--- Thread: why are Americans so afraid of the European system? (/showthread.php?tid=91087)
Re: why are Americans so afraid of the European system? - Black - 01-13-2010
davester wrote:
The reason is because the propaganda organizations (Fox News and the like) have used absurd caricatures of the Europeans as a tool to polarize people. Historically this is a very basic and commonly used propaganda tool. Most of us who have lived in Europe understand that those caricatures are completely false.
^most accurate answer IMO^
Similar to the use of obscure European countries as the setting for bizarre tabloid stories-- if there's a haunted toaster it's going to be in Albania, if there's a 101 year-old woman who's given birth it's going to be in Lichtenstein.
Ironically the European tabloids place every such occurrence in Florida.
Re: why are Americans so afraid of the European system? - davester - 01-13-2010
Black wrote: Ironically the European tabloids place every such occurrence in Florida.
That part is correct.
Re: why are Americans so afraid of the European system? - Lux Interior - 01-13-2010
One reason, and I think it is valid, is that many Europeans are taxed oppressively.
They have sweet lives, but they pay for it!
The falsehood is that this is ALL to pay for their "free" healthcare. Not true. They benefit from myriad other things as well as healthcare.
Such as:
Much better public transport
Lots of vacation
Money for those vacations (yes, some countries give you money to go on vacation! Go back & read the article on the system in the Netherlands)
Retirement benefits
Money for kids (in France, you get money to buy school supplies for your kids)
Maternity leave (not just a month or two. In France it is dependant on the number of kids you have. They also provide assistance while you are on leave, e.g. someone to come to your house and cook & clean)
These are just some that I am aware of.
Healthcare reform in the US is not going to provide all of these other things. It will raise taxes, but not to the stifling level a lot of Europeans pay.
Of course, people who don't want to pay any taxes will construct their strawmen. My favorite is the "Well, if we provide free healthcare, how long until the people are demanding free plasma TVs?"
Re: why are Americans so afraid of the European system? - OWC Jamie - 01-13-2010
Netherlands 52% personal tax and 19% VAT on top of that. Sweet.
Re: why are Americans so afraid of the European system? - J Marston - 01-13-2010
The "European system" is itself a misnomer, since there are all sorts of "systems" across Europe: thus, there is no single answer.
So a different way to look at it is this: Why do many Americans believe the society should be the servant of the economy while many Europeans believe the economy should be the servant of society? I think there is no simple answer, but one clue is the very high level of property ownership in America compared with many European countries. In 1800 or so, a large number of Americans, though incredibly poor, owned some property; in Europe, ownership was much less widespread. This remained true when the U.S. developed big capital in the later 1800s: even early union activists were wary of interfering too much with the rights of owners, because many of the members owned some property. This, even now, leads a lot of people to fear government intrusion into property rights, even when they benefit by doing so.
Re: why are Americans so afraid of the European system? - DharmaDog - 01-13-2010
- Many Americans thought European Vacation was a documentary.
- What's with the funny accents?
- We don't like cheese that contains cheese.
- We're afraid of unarmed people.
- Their cars are too small.
- They're a bunch of fancy-pants.
- We actually do like socialism, but only for the rich. The poor just need to get their sh!t together and quit whining.
Re: why are Americans so afraid of the European system? - TLB - 01-13-2010
I think in a large part it is historical tradition. The US was founded largely on the rights of the individual and the premise that rights of the individual trump those of the collective. This basic principle, usually viewed as "selfishness" from outside, is often considered the linchpin of liberty and freedom within. There is also a touch of Puritan tradition mixed in which believes in earning what you get--and the perception that government provided services are "give-aways" and unearned. These traditions are quickly dying, so you really don't have to worry about them much longer.
You also have to remember that the US doesn't have a single health care system. We are actually a number of disparate systems. The VA system is not unlike the British NHS with 1200 government-run hospitals, Medicare is a government insurance system not unlike Canada and benefits based private insurance is similar to Switzerland (albeit without subsidies). Maybe American's don't want a one-size fits all system?
The European systems are not necessarily outgrowth of public mandate or a socialist master plan, they are more often the result of pragmatism often driven by the destruction caused in WWII. England's NHS is an outgrowth of the wartime Emergency Medical Service. The government had to supplement local services in order to meet wartime needs. The intent was to demobilize EMS at the end of the war, but the war had destroyed the status quo and the only way to provide healthcare was the tested and practical means developed under wartime conditions. No other major country has adopted the British system--not because it doesn't work, but because other countries moved to universal health care under different conditions.
Similar observations can be made about the development of the French Securite Sociale and their development of payroll-tax financed insurance post war. The United States and Switzerland escaped the wartime damage that drove health care reform elsewhere. The Swiss citizens came to rely on private insurance and similarly the US followed suit, but private insurance was provided by employers largely due to Roosevelt's post-war wage controls.
Sorry for the long monologue, but I thought a little historical perspective was in order. I don't think American's are afraid of the "European System" which is not really a single entity any way. Distrustful of Congress, yes, skeptical of their clains, yes but any fear arises from the belief a new system may bring a norming effect , and those with health plans they are happy will end up much worse off than they are now.
Re: why are Americans so afraid of the European system? - davester - 01-13-2010
That was an interesting summary TLB. However, there is a significant omission in this statement:
TLB wrote: You also have to remember that the US doesn't have a single health care system. We are actually a number of disparate systems... ...Maybe American's don't want a one-size fits all system?
We have a number of disparate systems, PLUS there is a large segment of the populace that has NO system. That is NOT comparable to any of those other countries. The people who have undergone medical underwriting, recission, or unsustainable fee escalation in most cases have nowhere to turn other than bankruptcy, and bankruptcy these days is in most cases caused by medical expenses.
The fact is that NONE of the european countries have a system that allows insurers (whether the insurers be the government or private entities) to run roughshod over the public as they do here (underwriting, recission, refusal of coverage, outrageous premium escalation for sick people). It's not the people who have good health plans with continued coverage guaranteed by their employers that we need to worry about. It's the people who can't get coverage or who are subject to recission or lose their jobs (and insurance), or get absurd levels of fee escalation because they're sick that need to be protected. Also note that all of those countries have also disallowed another common practice here...people who game the system by opting out of medical insurance and then only when they are really sick end up having extremely expensive late-stage-illness care which results in their bankruptcy and transfer of the costs to those of us who do pay for insurance.
Re: why are Americans so afraid of the European system? - TLB - 01-13-2010
Sorry I neglected the "NO system" segment. That is the area where I think we could improve upon in the near term with industry regulation and subsidies--some of which I hope are in congressional plan--while we figure out what to do in the long run. I haven't done any research on "gamer"s and would be interested in their numbers. I think I've heard sound bites where talking heads have said 20, 50 or even 70% of the uninsured fall in this category.
Re: why are Americans so afraid of the European system? - davester - 01-13-2010
TLB wrote: I haven't done any research on "gamer"s and would be interested in their numbers.
I'm sure many of those people don't think of themselves as "gamers", though I have met folks who refuse to get health insurance and have said things like "they can't turn me away if I get really sick". Many people are simply in denial that they need doctors or hospitals or any healthcare at all. Chances are that most of them won't need much of that while they are young and apparently healthy (but even being young doesn't work for everybody). The problem is that if the only people who get health insurance are the "well-employed", sick and elderly then we get a system like the one we have now. Combine that with a recession that increases unemployment and we get the disaster that we are currently living through.
I watched a really good PBS documentary (Frontline: Sick Around America) on this situation the other day. If you have a netflix subscription you can access it online for free (or probably at PBS without needing netflix).