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+--- Thread: All Babies Go to Heaven (/showthread.php?tid=31958)
Re: All Babies Go to Heaven - Lux Interior - 05-08-2007
[quote kj]
I know you probably don't care, but something I've heard a lot is that it makes God sad when we don't do well. I would imagine it would really bum him out to ship people to hell, but that's part of free agency, in that we have been given that choice.
God is onmipotent. God created man. God gave man free-will. If God wanted us to all enter Heaven, then why didn't he make the rules such that it didn't matter what we did, or deny us the choice to not do that which would bar entry?
If the above is true, then he only has himself to blame. Not his creations.
And, no, I don't care.
[quote kj]
I haven't come in contact with many people who think only their denomination is "saved", but they probably exist.
Then you probably don't live in the south (i.e. the "Bible Belt").
[quote kj]I think they're wrong,
And they, you.
[quote kj]
There's a huge amount of diversity of belief among even the people in one church, not to mention all different churches, so to characterize them all based on jerry and pat seems awfully wrong to me. kj.
I would not characterize them all based on that. I was just stating that they are far from being on the fringe. Between them, they have TV stations, giga-churches, a university and a law school for starters.
Re: All Babies Go to Heaven - kj - 05-08-2007
>>Then you probably don't live in the south (i.e. the "Bible Belt").
I have. The lutherans didn't think the baptists were going to hell. In fact, they worked on stuff together. At any rate, the bible is ambiguous, but there are no denominations in the bible, so they'd have a tough case to make.
>>I was just stating that they are far from being on the fringe.
If you are saying those attitudes are pervasive, I disagree. kj.
Re: All Babies Go to Heaven - JoeH - 05-08-2007
I don't even live in the South, and I have come across those denominations here in New England. They tend to be small churches or meeting houses, and are very certain non-members are not going to be saved and they will be. The congregations and their ministers also tend not to participate in any of the multi-church groups as well. Can find them in small towns and cities around here if you look, mostly they try to keep out of notice. But not always. About 20 years ago, my ex happened to mention to someone she thought was a friend that she was interested in tarot and some other things like that. Next thing she knew, there was a whisper campaign going around that she was involved in witchcraft, satanism and the like. Traced it back to the minister of the "friend's" church
Re: All Babies Go to Heaven - MacMagus - 05-09-2007
> that's part of free agency, in that we have been given that choice
Sorry, but that doesn't wash. To be legally binding, it requires informed consent.
Re: All Babies Go to Heaven - Lux Interior - 05-09-2007
[quote kj]
>>I was just stating that they are far from being on the fringe.
If you are saying those attitudes are pervasive, I disagree. kj.
Not the majority, not pervasive, but far from being a small (insignificant) amount of people.
Re: All Babies Go to Heaven - kj - 05-09-2007
>>Sorry, but that doesn't wash. To be legally binding, it requires informed consent.
You're going to have to explain this one a little more. I tried to understand, I swear.
>>>Not the majority, not pervasive, but far from being a small (insignificant) amount of people.
I agree. kj.
Re: All Babies Go to Heaven - MacMagus - 05-09-2007
>>> I would imagine it would really bum him out to ship people to hell, but that's part of free
>>> agency, in that we have been given that choice.
>
>> Sorry, but that doesn't wash. To be legally binding, it requires informed consent.
>
> You're going to have to explain this one a little more.
We haven't been given a choice. Having a "choice" implies that we understand and consent to the rules.
Unless God sits each and every one of us down at a conference table and explains both the rules and the consequences for disobeying them we cannot be said to have had a "choice" to go to hell.
Merely having a bible is not sufficient. There's a few million different versions. Which one is the one we're supposed to follow? Which rules in that book take priority over other rules when there is a conflict?
If God wants to make this a matter of a simple "choice" then he's got to give us the real rules of the game.
Otherwise there's no choice at all in the matter. It's pure chance. Pick a religion, spin a wheel, heaven or hell.
Re: All Babies Go to Heaven - kj - 05-10-2007
Since we are talking the christian god here, it actually is always pretty surprising to me there is a fair amount of consensus as to how one gets to heaven. Being saved is relatively simple, but then you're going to want to please god, which is the part that is often so contentious. At any rate, this is a fairly commonly quoted verse:
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8,9).
The choice is whether to have this faith. But of course, being humans, we often can't let it be this simple. Plus, an awful lot of christians don't ever bother to look at the bible. But what you wrote above just isn't the gig, at least for christians. You don't tell god what needs to happen. I also, again, think the free agency thing is important. If it was just a simple list of rules, people could be forced to follow them, and it wouldn't mean a thing. Technically people would "qualify", but what's in their hearts? As far as the ambiguity of christianity, I like it. But I know very anal retentive christians, and it drives them nuts sometimes. kj.
Re: All Babies Go to Heaven - RgrF - 05-10-2007
I thought the point of the post was that a group of guys who like to wear dresses set themselves up as gatekeepers, they wanted to decide who got what goodies. If you didn't agree with them ...well then you were out.
Out being anything from a burning at the stake (in an earlier age) to you could no longer be a Scout leader in one of their troops (today). It's impossible to rationally argue with superstition, and the source of the superstition - Rome, Mecca or L. Ron Hubbard is irrelevent.
Re: All Babies Go to Heaven - MacMagus - 05-10-2007
> At any rate, this is a fairly commonly quoted verse:
>
> "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from
> yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast"
> (Ephesians 2:8,9).
>
> The choice is whether to have this faith.
What about original sin?
What about someone who believs in God's "grace," but who nevertheless works on a Sunday?
You're saying that all Catholics and Protestants and Anglicans and Mormons and Reformists and all of the other Christians can throw away their bibles and forget about all of the rules they are taught because merely accepting god's "grace" is enough to get them into heaven?
Which book says that? Where's God's signature on the affidavit? And why hasn't the Pope said anything about this?
> You don't tell god what needs to happen.
That's not what I said. One simply cannot have been said to have made a choice under God's (or anyone's) rules without having first made an informed consent to those rules.
No clear rules = no choice.
You seem to be saying that there's only one absolute rule that speaks vaguely about accepting God's "grace." And you imply that all Christians should know this rule and hold it as the one and only absolute rule, thus having a "choice" about whether to follow it or go to hell.
That doesn't make any sense. Even if one could construct a clear rule from your quote, in order for that rule to offer humans a "choice," infants would need to have the comprehension of a competent adult.
Under your scheme, a newborn infant who worshiped his parents would go to hell and that would be utterly appropriate because he had fair warning that he had to worship God in his grace first and foremost.
That simply defies all logic and observed facts. We are not made with a clear set of rules imprinted on our brains from God.