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+--- Thread: Recommended book on GWOT- Particularly War in Iraq (/showthread.php?tid=68165)
Re: Recommended book on GWOT- Particularly War in Iraq - Stizzealth - 12-14-2008
I'm not going to dispute that they made those statements, but I'm going to explain one of them and then politely ask that you ascend back to reality. The fact of the matter when it comes to Tommy Frank's comments is that the military men on the ground in combat zones aren't really on the same wavelength as the policy wonks in Washington. It would be no surprise if they were to disagree on a lot of things.
As for the other comments, Mr. Feith has accumulated a few political enemies. If we were to judge everyone by what negative commentators say about them, then it would be accepted belief that Obama was a closet Muslim from Kenya. But he isn't, and we don't.
"Doug Feith is a patriot. I have watched this man for four years. He cares only about what is best for the United States."
General Peter Pace
Chairman
Joint Chiefs of Staff
"Doug Feith, of course, is without question, one of the most brilliant individuals in government. He is – he's just a rare talent. And from my standpoint, working with him is always interesting. He's been one of the really the intellectual leaders in the administration in defense policy aspects of our work here."
Former Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld (didn't you mention him?)
"Doug is very bright and brings a very good strategic view to the table. He has solved some real problems."
Chairman of Joint Chiefs Richard Myers
"Your efforts in developing the war on terrorism strategy, the global defense posture, the President's June 24, 2002, Middle East speech, and moving forward the president's agenda on advancing freedom and democracy are among your many significant accomplishments.
For the last four years, you and your fine staff have provided outstanding support to Secretary Rumsfeld and the President.
Your intellectual leadership within the interagency has helped us meet the challenges that face our nation at this critical time. But equally important, you have provided an example of honesty, decency, and integrity that have made you a valued colleague and friend to us all."
Letter to Mr. Feith from NSA Advisor Steven Hadley
Re: Recommended book on GWOT- Particularly War in Iraq - Mac1337 - 12-14-2008
Dennis S wrote:
"His arguments are succinctly and clearly explained in 530 pages ..."
Succinctly? 530 pages?
I can give you a shorter history if you don't have the time. We went into Iraq to depose Saddam, deposed Saddam, got bugged down shortly after, Democrats did their darndest to make sure we stayed bugged down, said the war was lost, called our side every name in the book, Bush didn't follow their advise to withdraw, went for the kill, we won. Best of all, Obama can now keep his word to withdraw in 16 months, which he started saying two years ago.
Re: Recommended book on GWOT- Particularly War in Iraq - lafinfil - 12-14-2008
"Former Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld (didn't you mention him?)"
Sorry Rummy was their protector and not credible IMHO Wasn't he proven wrong with the rest of the lot ?
Might as well be Feiths mama saying "he's such a nice boy"
Re: Recommended book on GWOT- Particularly War in Iraq - Dennis S - 12-14-2008
"We went into Iraq to depose Saddam, deposed Saddam, got bugged down shortly after, Democrats did their darndest to make sure we stayed bugged down, said the war was lost, called our side every name in the book, Bush didn't follow their advise to withdraw, went for the kill, we won."
You say crazy stuff like this and expect us to read a bloated book on your recommendation?
Re: Recommended book on GWOT- Particularly War in Iraq - MacGurl - 12-14-2008
"We went into Iraq to depose Saddam
Jeez - weren't we all told back then that we were going to Iraq to fight the terrorists that threatened the safety of our country?
Opps - sorry about that, no terrorists, I guess we'll say it really was about Saddam instead.
Re: Recommended book on GWOT- Particularly War in Iraq - Ted King - 12-14-2008
I don't doubt Feith's intelligence or intentions, but I think his judgments were flawed. If you are sharp enough you can make a valid argument for just about anything if we allow that certain assumptions are true. It is many of the assumptions that Feith makes with which I disagree.
One assumption is that if Saddam had remained in power he would have become a major contributor to global terrorism. That is very debatable and an assumption I believe is incorrect.
Another assumption was that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. Yes, there was evidence that that was so, but there was plenty of reason to doubt it - and certainly before the invasion of Iraq when the weapons inspectors were back in Iraq combing through the place there was even more reason to think he didn't have any, but that didn't seem to matter. Feith does say he disagreed with the idea of making the issue of weapons of mass destruction as the central reason for invading Iraq but there is good reason to think that without the fear of nuclear weapons coming from Iraq that Bush wouldn't have been able to garner enough support to go to war. The kind of intellectual argument Feith says he advocated wouldn't have done the job, so if he really did object to the "weapons of mass destruction" argument shouldn't be the central one, then I wish he had won the day in the administration because I think we probably wouldn't have gone into that war without it's visceral fear appeal.
An additional wrong assumption he seems to have made is that the US could invade Iraq with a small number of troops and get out quickly, leaving behind a reasonably stable government. Nothing in the history of internal conflict between the Sunnis of central/west Iraq, Shia and Kurds suggests that they would quickly come to an accommodation. It's not clear to me whether or not he thought that there should have been more troops sent in the first place to do the invasion to avoid the problems like the massive looting that happened and the general lack of control necessary, but if he thought there should be more troops and he knew there just were not enough troops available then he should have rejected the notion of invading in the first place. If he thought the small number of troops would be sufficient then that is another assumption that was wrong.
So, sure, Feith is no doubt correct that if this and that and that and that were true then the programs he pushed made sense. But the assumptions of this and that and that were not true. He may be brilliant and well intentioned but he was so very wrong and played a big role in creating conditions where others took and are taking the horrible consequences. I wonder if he ever truly feels the full impact of that.
Re: Recommended book on GWOT- Particularly War in Iraq - Ted King - 12-14-2008
I should add that there is one area where I do have doubts about Feith's character. That is in relation to his possible role in helping establish the prison in Guantanamo Bay and the kinds of interrogations that took place there and other places that I think were torture. I'm not clear about how much of a role he played, but it seems like there is a good chance that he has quite a bit of culpability and therefore, in my mind, blame for what happened. Morally the Guantanamo Bay prison establishment and the torture of detainees is detestable and pragmatically was much more harmful than helpful. These were bad things by any measure as far as I'm concerned and to the extent he was involved he should be judged accordingly.
I was inspired to write the above after reading the following, written by Lawrence B. Wilkerson, a retired United States Army Colonel and former chief of staff to United States Secretary of State Colin Powell:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7060/is_/ai_n28529273
A sampling:
Feith is so zealous in this regard that he makes several very bad errors while proudly believing himself to be right--a common failing of this ultimately very strange man. He characterizes, for example, Armitage's failure to secure the deputy position at the Defense Department as the source of his later anger and coldness toward Feith and his comrades at Defense. Feith claims that Armitage's state of mind significantly contributed to the failures in the interagency process. The reader can almost see Feith's quirky little smile as he writes, "Powell would have had an especially favorable bureaucratic situation if he had headed State while his best friend, Armitage, was the number two at Defense." (This of course was Vice President Cheney's forte, sprinkling his people liberally throughout the bureaucracy to spy on his behalf.)
The truth is that in December 2000, in the Transition Office at State, Powell related to me and others in the room how ecstatic he was to have Armitage as his deputy--and Armitage was also delighted, having informed Rumsfeld in his only interview with him that there was zero chance he would come to work at Defense. Armitage's growing anger from 2001 to 2004 was not because of a thwarted ambition to be number two at Defense; rather, he was frustrated by the ever increasing ruthlessness of his key counterparts, such as Feith, as they used the vice president to muscle everyone else aside while they pursued their objectives.
[unquote]
Re: Recommended book on GWOT- Particularly War in Iraq - kanesa - 12-14-2008
Dakota wrote:
We went into Iraq to depose Saddam, deposed Saddam, got bugged down shortly after, Democrats did their darndest to make sure we stayed bugged down, said the war was lost, called our side every name in the book, Bush didn't follow their advise to withdraw, went for the kill, we won.
We won?
What did we win? I thought we supposedly declared "mission accomplished' on May 1, 2003.
More than 5 years later and 4000 American deaths and anywhere from a conservative 85,000 to 1,000,000 Iraqi civilian deaths, we can now say we have won. Rumsfeld went into Iraq without enough troops. No contingency plans for after the invasion which has been the reason we are "bugged down" Iraq. How is this all the Democrats fault?
I see Bush has gone to Iraq this weekend one last time. He has left this mess for someone else to clean up because he didn't know how to do it himself. All of the President's men who got us into this mess have long ago left him and the invasion behind. I am just glad at this point that McCain didn't win the election and added his military "expertise" to it.
Re: Recommended book on GWOT- Particularly War in Iraq - Mac1337 - 12-14-2008
Dennis S wrote:
"We went into Iraq to depose Saddam, deposed Saddam, got bugged down shortly after, Democrats did their darndest to make sure we stayed bugged down, said the war was lost, called our side every name in the book, Bush didn't follow their advise to withdraw, went for the kill, we won."
You say crazy stuff like this and expect us to read a bloated book on your recommendation?
If it was crazy you would have had something to say about it. Every word of it is true. BTW, you got the wrong guy. I didn't recommend the book.
Re: Recommended book on GWOT- Particularly War in Iraq - Mac1337 - 12-14-2008
kanesa wrote:
We won?
What did we win? I thought we supposedly declared "mission accomplished' on May 1, 2003.
Your post is dripping with disappointment with we have so far. You would have loved to see the last helicopter lift off from the roof one more time so you could update your mission accomplished picture. Sorry, it didn't happen. Start working on Afghanistan withdrawal.
