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+--- Thread: Chicago AR ban lifted (/showthread.php?tid=276759)
Re: Chicago AR ban lifted - DeusxMac - 05-02-2023
Mr645 wrote:
[quote=DeusxMac]
[quote=Mr645]
So machine guns are OK? They were invented in 1778 and fired 100 rounds per minute.
Citation?
Mr645 wrote: Would the same rule apply to the first amendment? And voting techniques?
False equivalence – describing two or more statements as virtually equal when they are not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puckle_gun
Technically the first, then in the late 1700's Gating invented his gun and various other fully automatic guns were invented.
Is it that you don't actually read your links, or you don't understand what you've read?
Where does it state "invented in 1778 and fired 100 rounds per minute."??
Who is your "Gating"* who "invented his gun" "in the late 1700's"??
Mr645 wrote: As far as comparing the 1st and 2nd amendments, both are the basis for our Constitution, both are in the bill of rights, don't see your point
If that represents the limits of your ability to differentiate between the two amendments, then the thought processes for your conclusions about them is explained.
*If you meant Gatling, he wasn't even born until 1818, and didn't develop his gun until 1861!
Re: Chicago AR ban lifted - sekker - 05-02-2023
sekker wrote:
[quote=Smote]
[quote=mattkime]
[quote=Smote]Someone exercising that Right lawfully is harmless.
We disagree.
As is our Right. But so is my Right the bear arms. Please feel free to LEGALLY attempt to change the laws, as long as no one's Constitutional Rights are violated.
It seems to me a lot here subscribe to the ends justify the means, as long as the Rights violated aren't yours, and you don't value them. How very far right Republican of you all.
Not at all. I have never proposed ending any Constitutional right. But it's NOT against the Constitution to require background checks, registration or even insurance.
Just reposting. Everything else is irrelevant.
We know what needs to get done. Stop pretending we don't.
But do I expect people to like it? I don't know. I keep thinking people would like their children to be safe in their schools, and then we move on once we solve that issue.
Re: Chicago AR ban lifted - Racer X - 05-02-2023
But why do the politicians continue to craft, and pass legislation that they know violates the Constitution, and violates Civil Rights?
You can knock out quite a lot of the gun violence by these same politicians crafting and passing legislation that requires District Attorney to prosecute EVERY firearms violation. And to remove bail as an option for violent firearms offendors so they can't continue to terrorize their communities and re-offend while waiting on court for the first offense.
I don't see any Civil Rights violations in that, do you? Once you are about a pre-teen, you know that commiting a crime with a firearm in not OK, and you "should" get in trouble. Once the message is loud and clear that you WILL get in trouble, and its serious, lots of that behavior will stop. Either because the penalty is too steep for the gain, or you are behind bars because you can't behave properly in public.
The same cities rife with gun violence are the ones not dealing with the criminals, especially the repeat offendors. Why are so many people unwilling to punish those causing the trouble? Might get ugly for a generation, but it will pass.
No amount of laws will solve the problem if you never enforce them. Hunter Biden lied on a 4473 form. That's a 10 year sentence. It is even literally a signed confession. Nothing was done. In the national news, and nothing was done. It sends a message that these laws aren't serious, and we aren't serious about solving these problems.
Re: Chicago AR ban lifted - sekker - 05-02-2023
Smote wrote:
But why do the politicians continue to craft, and pass legislation that they know violates the Constitution, and violates Civil Rights?
You can knock out quite a lot of the gun violence by these same politicians crafting and passing legislation that requires District Attorney to prosecute EVERY firearms violation. And to remove bail as an option for violent firearms offendors so they can't continue to terrorize their communities and re-offend while waiting on court for the first offense.
I don't see any Civil Rights violations in that, do you? Once you are about a pre-teen, you know that commiting a crime with a firearm in not OK, and you "should" get in trouble. Once the message is loud and clear that you WILL get in trouble, and its serious, lots of that behavior will stop. Either because the penalty is too steep for the gain, or you are behind bars because you can't behave properly in public.
The same cities rife with gun violence are the ones not dealing with the criminals, especially the repeat offendors. Why are so many people unwilling to punish those causing the trouble? Might get ugly for a generation, but it will pass.
No amount of laws will solve the problem if you never enforce them. Hunter Biden lied on a 4473 form. That's a 10 year sentence. It is even literally a signed confession. Nothing was done. In the national news, and nothing was done. It sends a message that these laws aren't serious, and we aren't serious about solving these problems.
No, no, no. You refuse to answer my questions because you know I'm right. There ARE solutions that will work and are Constitutional.
Tell me, do you want our kids to be safe in schools or not?
Re: Chicago AR ban lifted - Randalls - 05-02-2023
Indiana is the northern version of Texas. We do supply a lot of stolen firearms to Chicago unfortunately. Now that people can “print” weapons it will continue to get worse. Greed promotes these sales and the availability of so many guns promotes theft, violence and suicides. Lack of training for folks who own weapons legally is a big problem.
About 1/2 the states still require permits
https://www.statista.com/chart/20047/gun-carry-laws-in-us-states/
Re: Chicago AR ban lifted - Racer X - 05-02-2023
sekker wrote:
[quote=Smote]
But why do the politicians continue to craft, and pass legislation that they know violates the Constitution, and violates Civil Rights?
You can knock out quite a lot of the gun violence by these same politicians crafting and passing legislation that requires District Attorney to prosecute EVERY firearms violation. And to remove bail as an option for violent firearms offendors so they can't continue to terrorize their communities and re-offend while waiting on court for the first offense.
I don't see any Civil Rights violations in that, do you? Once you are about a pre-teen, you know that commiting a crime with a firearm in not OK, and you "should" get in trouble. Once the message is loud and clear that you WILL get in trouble, and its serious, lots of that behavior will stop. Either because the penalty is too steep for the gain, or you are behind bars because you can't behave properly in public.
The same cities rife with gun violence are the ones not dealing with the criminals, especially the repeat offendors. Why are so many people unwilling to punish those causing the trouble? Might get ugly for a generation, but it will pass.
No amount of laws will solve the problem if you never enforce them. Hunter Biden lied on a 4473 form. That's a 10 year sentence. It is even literally a signed confession. Nothing was done. In the national news, and nothing was done. It sends a message that these laws aren't serious, and we aren't serious about solving these problems.
No, no, no. You refuse to answer my questions because you know I'm right. There ARE solutions that will work and are Constitutional.
Tell me, do you want our kids to be safe in schools or not?
Absolutely I want our kids safe in schools. I never said I didn't. Please show me where I said I didn't. I have no issue with background checks, or reasonable close ended waiting periods. The bogus "assault weapon" hysteria is essentially made-up though, as the numbers of deaths FROM them is a fraction of a percent. They aren't the problem. Narrowing the issue down to a few hundred deaths a year driving everything is doing a massive dis-service to the cause of lessening firearms violence though, because knowledgeable people who have looked at the actual raw data that gets cherry picked over know they aren't the problem.
The shoulder brace BS? 3 cases where they have been used in a crime. Out of between 10 and 40 million braces. The ATF acknowledges this in their own ddocuments.
The stumbling block is that it is a very visceral emotional issue, and that is blinding so many people on both sides.
I notice no one but me is touching on politicians knowingly violating civil rights. As long as they don't bother you, it's OK?
Re: Chicago AR ban lifted - sekker - 05-03-2023
Smote wrote:
[quote=sekker]
[quote=Smote]
But why do the politicians continue to craft, and pass legislation that they know violates the Constitution, and violates Civil Rights?
You can knock out quite a lot of the gun violence by these same politicians crafting and passing legislation that requires District Attorney to prosecute EVERY firearms violation. And to remove bail as an option for violent firearms offendors so they can't continue to terrorize their communities and re-offend while waiting on court for the first offense.
I don't see any Civil Rights violations in that, do you? Once you are about a pre-teen, you know that commiting a crime with a firearm in not OK, and you "should" get in trouble. Once the message is loud and clear that you WILL get in trouble, and its serious, lots of that behavior will stop. Either because the penalty is too steep for the gain, or you are behind bars because you can't behave properly in public.
The same cities rife with gun violence are the ones not dealing with the criminals, especially the repeat offendors. Why are so many people unwilling to punish those causing the trouble? Might get ugly for a generation, but it will pass.
No amount of laws will solve the problem if you never enforce them. Hunter Biden lied on a 4473 form. That's a 10 year sentence. It is even literally a signed confession. Nothing was done. In the national news, and nothing was done. It sends a message that these laws aren't serious, and we aren't serious about solving these problems.
No, no, no. You refuse to answer my questions because you know I'm right. There ARE solutions that will work and are Constitutional.
Tell me, do you want our kids to be safe in schools or not?
Absolutely I want our kids safe in schools. I never said I didn't. Please show me where I said I didn't. I have no issue with background checks, or reasonable close ended waiting periods. The bogus "assault weapon" hysteria is essentially made-up though, as the numbers of deaths FROM them is a fraction of a percent. They aren't the problem. Narrowing the issue down to a few hundred deaths a year driving everything is doing a massive dis-service to the cause of lessening firearms violence though, because knowledgeable people who have looked at the actual raw data that gets cherry picked over know they aren't the problem.
The shoulder brace BS? 3 cases where they have been used in a crime. Out of between 10 and 40 million braces. The ATF acknowledges this in their own ddocuments.
The stumbling block is that it is a very visceral emotional issue, and that is blinding so many people on both sides.
I notice no one but me is touching on politicians knowingly violating civil rights. As long as they don't bother you, it's OK?
No. You are trying to equate past governance failures to current proposals. 1) Actual background checks, no loopholes. 2) Registration of guns, no loopholes. 3) Insurance requirements because (2) means we have a place to start tracking who is responsible when a gun is used to kill people.
None of these ideas are un-Constitutional. And I share your comment that prior political solutions have been poorly executed.
So please stop not answering by accusing others. It is up to us to solve this problem, and we are capable of doing so if we find common ground.
Re: Chicago AR ban lifted - Mr645 - 05-03-2023
Smote wrote:
But why do the politicians continue to craft, and pass legislation that they know violates the Constitution, and violates Civil Rights?
Because of votes. Votes are more important than safety
Re: Chicago AR ban lifted - Mr645 - 05-03-2023
sekker wrote:
[quote=Smote]
[quote=sekker]
[quote=Smote]
But why do the politicians continue to craft, and pass legislation that they know violates the Constitution, and violates Civil Rights?
You can knock out quite a lot of the gun violence by these same politicians crafting and passing legislation that requires District Attorney to prosecute EVERY firearms violation. And to remove bail as an option for violent firearms offendors so they can't continue to terrorize their communities and re-offend while waiting on court for the first offense.
I don't see any Civil Rights violations in that, do you? Once you are about a pre-teen, you know that commiting a crime with a firearm in not OK, and you "should" get in trouble. Once the message is loud and clear that you WILL get in trouble, and its serious, lots of that behavior will stop. Either because the penalty is too steep for the gain, or you are behind bars because you can't behave properly in public.
The same cities rife with gun violence are the ones not dealing with the criminals, especially the repeat offendors. Why are so many people unwilling to punish those causing the trouble? Might get ugly for a generation, but it will pass.
No amount of laws will solve the problem if you never enforce them. Hunter Biden lied on a 4473 form. That's a 10 year sentence. It is even literally a signed confession. Nothing was done. In the national news, and nothing was done. It sends a message that these laws aren't serious, and we aren't serious about solving these problems.
No, no, no. You refuse to answer my questions because you know I'm right. There ARE solutions that will work and are Constitutional.
Tell me, do you want our kids to be safe in schools or not?
Absolutely I want our kids safe in schools. I never said I didn't. Please show me where I said I didn't. I have no issue with background checks, or reasonable close ended waiting periods. The bogus "assault weapon" hysteria is essentially made-up though, as the numbers of deaths FROM them is a fraction of a percent. They aren't the problem. Narrowing the issue down to a few hundred deaths a year driving everything is doing a massive dis-service to the cause of lessening firearms violence though, because knowledgeable people who have looked at the actual raw data that gets cherry picked over know they aren't the problem.
The shoulder brace BS? 3 cases where they have been used in a crime. Out of between 10 and 40 million braces. The ATF acknowledges this in their own ddocuments.
The stumbling block is that it is a very visceral emotional issue, and that is blinding so many people on both sides.
I notice no one but me is touching on politicians knowingly violating civil rights. As long as they don't bother you, it's OK?
No. You are trying to equate past governance failures to current proposals. 1) Actual background checks, no loopholes. 2) Registration of guns, no loopholes. 3) Insurance requirements because (2) means we have a place to start tracking who is responsible when a gun is used to kill people.
None of these ideas are un-Constitutional. And I share your comment that prior political solutions have been poorly executed.
So please stop not answering by accusing others. It is up to us to solve this problem, and we are capable of doing so if we find common ground.
99% of gun sales go through background checks, well 99% of gun sales between law abiding citizens. Criminals, probably not so much, and insurance requirements, registration,........ Read the part of the constitution that says "Shall not be infringed". Every American has the right to protect themselves
Re: Chicago AR ban lifted - Racer X - 05-03-2023
Insurance won't work, because as soon as a person violates the law, the ins company will say, not our problem. And if the firearm is stolen, and someone uses it illegally, the legal owner isn't responsible for any of it, because that was decided decades ago with autos and boats.
But once again, unless these laws and regulations are enforced without exception, it isn't going to work. The current ones aren't being enforced, what makes anyone think new ones will be? This is not a rhetorical question. The lawmakers fail to make it a requirement to enforce, with penalties on those responsible for their enforcement. So each and every one of us is responsible, because WE aren't holding the elected officials, and the law enforcement and criminal justice systems accountable.
Right now, liberal lawmakers craft and enact illegal legislation, and blame the conservatives when they don't succeed. And the conservatives don't trust the liberals to do "just a few common sense things" Ever heard Rep Giffords rant, and her party tries everything to walk it back, even as she keeps shouting ALL GUNS? I have a friend with 4 bullet scars in him. Never heard him rant about AKMs. Now the person who shot him, his questionable parentage, and where he will end up when he dies, sure. Anyone angry at SUVs because they got hit by someone on a cellphone? At the cellphone, or the person using it instead of just driving?
The games played by saying certain cosmetic features make a rifle evil, but without them they are fine, and they will be allowed? What rational and knowledgeable person THINKS that way? No one is the likely answer.
People are trying to protect me from myself claiming I'm more at risk with firearms in my home. Not your job. You are free to do whatever you want to in your home. None of my, or anyone else's business as long as you aren't harming others in your community without their consent.
I'm all for any and all mental and emotional health assistance that can be made available to anyone who wants or needs it. What rational person would be against helping others in crisis, or near crisis? We don't really need guidance counselors in schools any more, we need social workers and mental/emotional health councelors. And in colleges/universities as well. Most people struggle with basic life until well into their 20s these days.