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+--- Thread: Harry Reid says Paying Taxes in America is VOLUNTARY (/showthread.php?tid=71814)
Re: Harry Reid says Paying Taxes in America is VOLUNTARY - Kiva - 02-09-2009
swampy wrote:
Kiva, What do I owe you for the psycho analysis?
i'd rather you take it to heart and take a look at the way you deal with people and things around you.
kiva
Re: Harry Reid says Paying Taxes in America is VOLUNTARY - Greg - 02-09-2009
billb wrote:
[quote=Greg]
I like discussing language and meaning and whether arguments can be supported. That's my schtick.
First, anyone who claims that paying of taxes in the United States is truly delusional, so I set that one aside.
.
delusional = voluntary ?
:-)
I mean what I say. Unless, of course, I speak gibberish. Good catch. :-)
Re: Harry Reid says Paying Taxes in America is VOLUNTARY - davester - 02-09-2009
Greg wrote: I mean what I say.Unless, of courseEspecially when I speak gibberish. Good catch. :-)
Fixed that for ya Greg (formerly known as "the dogsitter").
Re: Harry Reid says Paying Taxes in America is VOLUNTARY - Mac-A-Matic - 02-09-2009
swampy wrote:
YouTube video (Time 4:31) of Harry Reid saying over and over and over and over that paying taxes in America is voluntary!
Maybe this is one of the changes Obama had in mind, voluntary payment of taxes! If it is, I've become a great big Obama fan.
I've actually gone down to the Library of Congress' Main Reading Room and ordered the relevant sections of the US Code on income tax. And in the section that specifies who is liable for paying taxes, I can see clearly why people claim, believe and know that income tax is a voluntary tax. Part of that has to do with the language of the code itself, and while this is not verbatim, it does state something to the effect of such and such has to pay taxes including citizens of Washington DC, Commonwealths and territories.
The code did not mention the US States, it did specify districts, territories, protectorates and commonwealths and their citizens as being subject to Federal tax (i.e. income tax).
But the key word was pointed out to me as being the word "including." Evidently, under legal definition, to "include" something is to exclude everything else. So, if you say including commonwealths, territories, protectorates and districts, it also means that you are excluding everything else - i.e. the states.
I believe this has something to do with sovereignty of the US States. A state is free to impose an income tax on its' citizens as necessary. However, it is beyond the scope of the Federal Government to impose a tax on state residents.
For example. the term always used is "taxpayer" and not "citizen." This underlines the fact that we are not required to pay income tax but that we choose and volunteer to pay the income tax. The Federal Government and Internal Revenue Service rely on the volunteer payment of tax.
Now, what does this mean in real world terms? Practically nothing. Those who have made the argument that we do not have to pay taxes are ridiculed and derided by those who have been forced into fear of paying taxes. Those who choose to push their right not to pay income tax have to jump through continuing hoops with a constant filing of paperwork proving that their liability is, in fact, a fraud perpetrated by the government. Reams of research and supporting documents must be sent every year.
But what are they getting these people on and sending them to jail for? You'll never hear about those who battle the government over the legitimacy of the income tax (because it is illegitimate), you hear about those who go to jail because of tax fraud. Those who choose to file but lie about their income or in some way create fraud in their filings.
Truth is, it's nigh impossible to follow the law and fight the forced imposition of Federal Income Tax. The government has the guns, manpower, weapons, courts, tools and sheer money to crush just about anyone.
Most people will find that it's easier just to pay for the rape of income tax than to fight for the law.
Re: Harry Reid says Paying Taxes in America is VOLUNTARY - swampy - 02-09-2009
Good info M-A-M...
I think we all know that the federal income tax was not a part of the original Constitution, but was added by the 16th Amendment circa 1913.
Some still argue that the amendment was never fully ratified and therefore is not "legal". There's a good article at http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21745
It is a fascinating topic of discussion.
Re: Harry Reid says Paying Taxes in America is VOLUNTARY - Mac-A-Matic - 02-09-2009
swampy-
It certainly is a topic for a good, heated discussion. I encourage everyone to seek out the pertinent US Codes, read it and decide for themselves.
Re: Harry Reid says Paying Taxes in America is VOLUNTARY - Dennis S - 02-09-2009
I knew it was a matter of time until the nuts started saying the income tax is not legal.
Re: Harry Reid says Paying Taxes in America is VOLUNTARY - Mac-A-Matic - 02-10-2009
Dennis S wrote:
I knew it was a matter of time until the nuts started saying the income tax is not legal.
According the US Code that I have read, Federal Income tax is legal. However, it does not apply to people outside of Federal Districts, Commonwealths, Territories and Protectorates.
Again, I encourage you to read and decide for yourself. Rather than standing around spouting off baseless rhetoric that's been force fed to Americans in a concerted effort to force (read: scare) the people to voluntarily pay Federal Income Tax.
Re: Harry Reid says Paying Taxes in America is VOLUNTARY - Greg - 02-10-2009
Mac-A-Matic wrote:
Again, I encourage you to read and decide for yourself. Rather than standing around spouting off baseless rhetoric that's been force fed to Americans in a concerted effort to force (read: scare) the people to voluntarily pay Federal Income Tax.
M-A-M, I appreciate your efforts to actually research this.
Re: Harry Reid says Paying Taxes in America is VOLUNTARY - Mac-A-Matic - 02-10-2009
All of this started for me when some friends got involved in these groups that help others realize that Federal Income Tax is a voluntary tax and not a mandatory tax for most Americans.
I sat in on some meetings and reviewed the documentation they generated and then, eventually, turned to the US Code itself for clarification. One of the things I discovered is that the US Code is so convoluted that clarification is something that remains elusive for most legislators, politicians, bureaucrats, attorneys and court systems - especially when it comes to taxation.
From what I understood, Federal Income Tax is voluntary. There is no legal requirement for most Americans to pay Federal Income Tax, though most pay this tax because they've been scared into doing so by the tactics of the government and the IRS. And let's face it, if we accept that Federal Income Tax is voluntary and the people can simply opt not to pay it, then it's in the governments' best interest to do whatever they can to coerce and bully the people into paying. They can't change the law without fundamentally altering the Constitution and the relationship between the Federal Government and independent States, so bullying and scaring the people shitless is the next best thing to ensure a steady stream of revenue for the government to waste.
What the government does require is that the people file something with the IRS. They can file documentation refuting the income tax or they can file a tax return. The key is that the person HAS to file.
In the situation of those who battle the government, they file reams of documentation on legal interpretation of the US Code demonstrating that the Federal Income Tax is voluntary and they are not required to pay. The rest just pay the income tax and are done with it. Those who challenge routinely request from the IRS documentation demonstrating a requirement to pay. They also request specific IRS publications that supposedly state who is required to pay. These are usually met with canned responses that they "must" pay and/or that the publications are out of stock.
Where the government seems to get people is with tax evasion and fraud. If you volunteer to file a tax return (indicating your liability) and you state that you made $100 last year but it turns out you made $120 (and only paid taxes on $100) then you've now committed fraud and you will be fined, sent to prison and made an example of in the media - the latter being another arrow in the quiver to scare people into paying taxes.
Notice that you always hear about tax fraud and people being sent to prison over taxes in the first quarter of the year. it helps to pad their numbers, scare the people and ensure the most amount of returns.
If you were to search the Internet, there are a number of people who have created websites detailing a lot of what I've touched on here and provide copies of their documentation. Once you get beyond the responses programmed into us by the government and open your mind that perhaps they have something can you begin to see that maybe these people aren't just nutjobs, kooks and people holed up in their houses in the backwoods somewhere.