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+--- Thread: The worst civil liberties president in US history?.... (/showthread.php?tid=143896)
Re: The worst civil liberties president in US history?.... - deckeda - 11-05-2012
The spying argument is interesting because its given without regard to when or why it might happen or under what circumstances.
I'm NOT assuming that if someone is spied upon that "they're likely guilty of something" but nor am I worried that our government gives a rat's ass about anything the vast majority of its citizenry does online. And if you take such a worry to its logical conclusion you'd run into the very practical problem of a useless data deluge, unsortable and unsearchable in any reasonable timeframe.
Re: The worst civil liberties president in US history?.... - mick e - 11-05-2012
Data overload is really the only hope for the republic.
Re: The worst civil liberties president in US history?.... - max - 11-05-2012
mick e wrote:
The point that mick e has made is that Obama had an opportunity to make things right and restore the system of governance that existed before W Bush. Because he chose to go the other way, he has ruined the system that was put in place by the founders.
This may sound like hyperbole to you, but since he failed to act in the ways he stated he would leading up to the 2008 election, any hope of restoring the constitutional protections that we had enjoyed for most of our lives is lost. The genie cannot and won't be put back in the bottle at this point.
This means more tracking and surveillance, less freedom to travel - even within the country's borders. The systematic domination and suppression by the government over it's people is well underway.
Obama could have outlawed all domestic spying programs and arrested and tried the Bush Administration for their blatant flouting of constitutional law. He could have made statements condemning these programs and anything like it that intrudes on individual rights. He could have been a hero to the nation, but instead he decided to be its undertaker.
I could not have said it better myself,
then there those who do not give a rat's ass about this "freedom and liberty" thing....
Re: The worst civil liberties president in US history?.... - michaelb - 11-05-2012
Well it does seem like Max and Mick E would agree that Obama can't possibly be the "worst" president, if what he has failed to do is curb the abuses of power by Bush. You also seem to be overlooking what has occured and why.
Illegal war in Iraq: ended
closing Guantanamo Bay; attempted, blocked by republicans;
setting up process for trying detainees lawfully: attempted, blocked by republicans;
torture of prisoners: ended
I don't really have a strong view on the issues of domestic "spying" and e-privacy. This seems grossly overblown to me, but maybe it is significant. Certainly can be revisited as we work through the issues over time. These e-privacy issues seem trivial though in comparison to slavery, dropping an atomic bomb on civilians, or even drone strikes on innocents in Pakistan.
But a fundamental difference is that Obama is mostly operating in accordance with validly passed US laws. Those laws are quite likely to be constituational. You may be unhappy with those laws, but that is a huge fundamental difference with Bush that operated without any such authority.
Re: The worst civil liberties president in US history?.... - mick e - 11-05-2012
Are you missing the entire point of this thread? It has nothing to do with "He got us out of Iraq" or "He killed Bin Laden".
Obama is the worst when it comes to CIVIL LIBERTIES.
The first amendment rights have been completely gutted. You no longer have any reasonable right to privacy, and because of Obama's deeds and lack of action - you never will again.
Re: The worst civil liberties president in US history?.... - rjmacs - 11-05-2012
max wrote:Do you?
[quote=rjmacs]
You don't actually know what fascism is, do you?
You are complaining about totalitarianism, not fascism.
I'm actually sympathetic to a lot of your points on civil liberties, but this is Political Science 101. You aren't doing your argument very proud.
Or did you sleep through your Political Science 101.
Or are you so blinded with your own hypocrisy that you are ignoring reality?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment
Try to read more than a paragraph.
The 2007 article was written about Bush, it apples even more so to Obama.
The organs of the state are the same, the same fascist policies have been increased exponentially and more effectively under the new regime.
There is totalitarianism and there is fascism, Obama is a fascist who has honed the tools of totalitarianism.
Presumably you do comprehend the difference....
You don't know the first thing about fascism. Fascism involves direct government control of the economy and private productive capacity. Not the "potential" for that interference - ACTUAL ACTIVE CONTROL.
You have many good points about Obama's failure to undo to totalitarian-leaning actions of GWB after 9/11. But the fact that Naomi Wolf doesn't understand what fascism is doesn't mean that your failure to know what it is any less incorrect.
Re: The worst civil liberties president in US history?.... - deckeda - 11-05-2012
Speaking only for myself I expect to enjoy the right of privacy, still, because I don't live in a country where it's been demonstrated to have disappeared.
In other words if you take away my right to privacy but don't take away my privacy, I effectively still have both.
Re: The worst civil liberties president in US history?.... - mick e - 11-05-2012
Smells like Obama spirit!
Re: The worst civil liberties president in US history?.... - michaelb - 11-05-2012
mick e wrote:
Are you missing the entire point of this thread? It has nothing to do with "He got us out of Iraq" or "He killed Bin Laden".
Obama is the worst when it comes to CIVIL LIBERTIES.
The first amendment rights have been completely gutted. You no longer have any reasonable right to privacy, and because of Obama's deeds and lack of action - you never will again.
You are right, I have no idea what you are talking about then. I was referencing the actual linked article, which does talk about slavery, and war and terrorism and the actions of US Presidents in those contexts.
How, in any possible way, have your "first amendment rights" been "gutted". Honestly, that is just completely unbelievable hyperbole.
Re: The worst civil liberties president in US history?.... - mick e - 11-05-2012
mick e has posted - numerous times over - the ways in which the constitution has been gutted by the W Bush and Obama administrations.
These are not temporary violations, as was the case with Lincoln and FDR. Legislation has been passed, and the programs are now part of the lives of every American citizen. Future presidents from either of the two major parties will not be dismantling these programs. The die has been cast.