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"This Backyard Bird Has a Lot to Teach Us about Sex Variability" - $tevie - 03-19-2025
White-throated Sparrows demonstrate that traits we usually associate with sex can be influenced by genes that are not on sex chromosomes
White-throated Sparrows help us see past the sex binary by forcing us to acknowledge sources of variability other than sex, which is, in reality, only a small contributor to variability for many species. Diversity and plasticity of phenotypic expression is the norm, particularly for traits that correlate with sex. Sex-related traits are simply not hardwired.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-backyard-bird-offers-a-new-way-of-thinking-about-sexes/
Re: "This Backyard Bird Has a Lot to Teach Us about Sex Variability" - mrbigstuff - 03-19-2025
Interesting. But also
"This interesting and complex situation has earned this species the nickname “the bird with four sexes.” But to be clear, White-throated Sparrows do not have four different types of gonads. As in other birds, each individual typically has either two testes that produce sperm or a single ovary that produces eggs."
Re: "This Backyard Bird Has a Lot to Teach Us about Sex Variability" - Diana - 03-19-2025
Is there anyone here on the forum who has kept fish? Specifically, guppies? You know, those fancy colorful fish with long flowing fins?
So, you go to the pet store and buy a dozen of the little buggers, all male, because they’re pretty and you don’t care for those drab females (and maybe you don’t care about them having babies). All is good until you notice one of those males has changed: it’s gotten heavier, it’s abdominal spot where it poops has gotten bigger, and the rest of the males are chasing it around. Huh, you think, and go about your day. Next thing you know, little babies are swimming around.
Guppies aren’t the only fish that will change sex depending on their circumstances. Yes, you can say that they have only male or female gonads, but … is that true? Can genes exert such influence after so-called sexual maturation? They do in some fish (I won’t claim ALL because I don’t know that); I’m not surprised that such plasticity is found in birds; I don’t know if it has been seen in insects; I seem to recall something of this in other invertebrate species.
Those who insist that the world is the way they want to see it are blind, indeed. (Not saying this applies to anyone HERE, you know…).
As a scientist, I have to ask “If you already know the answer, then why are you doing the experiment?” And the answer is usually to realize that I don’t know everything. Hell, some days it seems like I don’t know ANYthing.
Edit: reading the article helps. It doesn’t claim that the birds change sex (I’m still reading it) but rather some of the things we have considered as sex-related aren’t actually related to the sex of the creature… I’m still reading, and will amend my post shortly.
Re: "This Backyard Bird Has a Lot to Teach Us about Sex Variability" - mrbigstuff - 03-19-2025
Not perhaps the same thing but aren't some sharks asexual?
Aren't some snakes parthenogenetic?
Re: "This Backyard Bird Has a Lot to Teach Us about Sex Variability" - $tevie - 03-19-2025
mrbigstuff wrote:
Interesting. But also
"This interesting and complex situation has earned this species the nickname “the bird with four sexes.” But to be clear, White-throated Sparrows do not have four different types of gonads. As in other birds, each individual typically has either two testes that produce sperm or a single ovary that produces eggs."
But the behaviors of the birds can vary with males displaying female traits and females displaying male traits, resulting in that nickname. As you know since you read the entire article.
Re: "This Backyard Bird Has a Lot to Teach Us about Sex Variability" - PeterB - 03-19-2025
To add to what Diana has written:
Androgen insensitivity syndrome (XY, but at least superficially phenotypically XX):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome
XX male syndrome (XX, but at least superficially phenotypically XY):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome
... and my personal favorite, 5 alpha-Reductase 2 deficiency, aka güevedoces (often considered a third gender):
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34290981
Re: "This Backyard Bird Has a Lot to Teach Us about Sex Variability" - Spock - 03-19-2025
6 Cultures That Recognize More than Two Genders
Re: "This Backyard Bird Has a Lot to Teach Us about Sex Variability" - Lux Interior - 03-19-2025
That's nice & all, but y'all are using the Devil's Tools (i.e. science) to undermine what we know to be True as Good Christians™ who are quite familiar with what Jesus said about gays & transgenders!
Just gimme a minnit to look it all up.
I'll be right back...
Re: "This Backyard Bird Has a Lot to Teach Us about Sex Variability" - Diana - 03-19-2025
Lux Interior wrote:
That's nice & all, but y'all are using the Devil's Tools (i.e. science) to undermine what we know to be True as Good Christians™ who are quite familiar with what Jesus said about gays & transgenders!
Just gimme a minnit to look it all up.
I'll be right back...
Take your time. You’re going to need it.
Re: "This Backyard Bird Has a Lot to Teach Us about Sex Variability" - mrbigstuff - 03-19-2025
$tevie wrote:
[quote=mrbigstuff]
Interesting. But also
"This interesting and complex situation has earned this species the nickname “the bird with four sexes.” But to be clear, White-throated Sparrows do not have four different types of gonads. As in other birds, each individual typically has either two testes that produce sperm or a single ovary that produces eggs."
But the behaviors of the birds can vary with males displaying female traits and females displaying male traits, resulting in that nickname. As you know since you read the entire article.
they are hoping for clicks with that clickbait-y title, which probably could be "male and female traits interchangeable in WTS."