Bill Zeller - How to do a suicide

[Spock]

Greg wrote:

In my experience, people who call hotlines do not want to commit suicide. People who seek out friends and family, doctors, and medication do not want to commit suicide. People who want to kill themselves, do.

That is my experience, I agree with you 100%.

[kj]

>>If someone wants to commit suicide, they will. Not sure why you have such a hard time accepting this.

I have a hard time accepting it, because it isn't always true. Are you saying anyone who doesn't succeed, didn't _really_ want to succeed? If so, that just isn't the way things are.

>>You invoke Jesus to me, then you've got no sense.

Again, I never invoked Jesus. You brought it up before I did. But people often find strength, support, inspiration, purpose, in religion. I wouldn't say much more than that, but apparently you know somehow that they don't?

What's the deal with guilt? I said a person doesn't need to feel guilty. If you want to believe people have no influence at all over other people (or shouldn't), fine. But there's no flippin' way I'm going to agree with that. kj.

[Greg]

kj wrote:
I have a hard time accepting it, because it isn't always true. Are you saying anyone who doesn't succeed, didn't _really_ want to succeed? If so, that just isn't the way things are.

Do try to not be condescending when discussing suicide with me. I'd appreciate it.

You mentioned Jesus, and you mentioned guilt. I've had enough of pseudo-helpful and handwringing crap (e.g., 'if only somebody had done something!') thrown in my face to know it's irrelevant and inappropriate.

Talk psychology, talk medications, talk DSM, talk sense. But nobody (you or anyone) may tell me about how it's possible to prevent someone who actually wants to kill him or herself from doing so.

And if you want to dance when discussing such a serious topic by pointing out that I must not be right because sometimes suicide attempts fail, then knock yourself out.

People who want to kill themselves do.

[Lux Interior]

Janz wrote:
I feel sorry that this man did not get the help he needed and his family/church misrepresented God to him.

I'd like to nominate this as understatement of the year.

[kj]

Greg wrote:
[quote=kj]
I have a hard time accepting it, because it isn't always true. Are you saying anyone who doesn't succeed, didn't _really_ want to succeed? If so, that just isn't the way things are.

Do try to not be condescending when discussing suicide with me. I'd appreciate it.

You mentioned Jesus, and you mentioned guilt. I've had enough of pseudo-helpful and handwringing crap (e.g., 'if only somebody had done something!') thrown in my face to know it's irrelevant and inappropriate.

Talk psychology, talk medications, talk DSM, talk sense. But nobody (you or anyone) may tell me about how it's possible to prevent someone who actually wants to kill him or herself from doing so.

And if you want to dance when discussing such a serious topic by pointing out that I must not be right because sometimes suicide attempts fail, then knock yourself out.

People who want to kill themselves do.
I didn't say any of what you pretend I did. At any rate, most everyone has had tragedy in their lives. That you've had your share gives you no right at all to proclaim all suicidal people hopeless. The fact you do is incredibly offensive to me. Take care. kj.

[$tevie]

I don't see where Greg declares all suicidal people hopeless.

If you want to talk about offensive, I personally have found the fact that you would argue about this with Greg extremely offensive. I wasn't going to say anything, but now that you've brought up being offended I feel compelled to do so. Use some common sense, for crying out loud, or at least some common courtesy.

[Greg]

I've lost interest in taking on heavy burdens of responsibility for what other people do. This is cold, but the alternative, using kj's silly and misapplied term, is "hopeless". Nobody takes responsibility for me, and I take no responsibility for anyone else. If I want to march out into the snow right now and die, that's my choice, and nobody should have any cockeyed notion of responsibility for it. Someone wants to die by shooting themselves, that's their choice, too, and fuck 'em.

My thoughts are from experience, therapy, and introspection. My authority comes from the input of my therapist, whose day job is evaluating suicide risks at local hospitals.

People who want to commit suicide do so. This is hard for people to understand, possibly because they don't want to; they need to make some sort of distinction between an act of such magnitude and all other acts. Really, they are all decisions. If I eat a gallon of ice cream, or if I shotgun my head off, these are my choices.

People told me, "you could have done something." Bullshit. How do you control somebody who doesn't want to be controlled? How do you influence someone who knows *exactly* what they want to do?

My therapist told me about an intake who was intent on killing himself. So, she made a contract with him, promising he would not do anything to hurt himself for 24 hours.

When the 24 hours were up, he hanged himself.

Because that's what he wanted to do.

To all the people out there who who say that friends and family of suicide victims could have helped more, or that Jesus (never faith, always Jesus) could help, or that work themselves into a tizzy about "what went wrong" and then take it out on other people, or that blame anyone but the suicide for what happened: Fuck you. You're idiots, you don't know what you're talking about, you're being thoughtless to others, and you haven't the sense that God gave a pile of dog poo.

Just kidding.

There is no God.

With that, I don't want to continue this conversation. I'm not angry, but I have other things to do. I've shared all of my thoughts, and in a positive sense, I hoped this can possibly help someone whose been through a similar experience as I.

Seek happiness.

[kj]

$tevie wrote:
I don't see where Greg declares all suicidal people hopeless.

If you want to talk about offensive, I personally have found the fact that you would argue about this with Greg extremely offensive. I wasn't going to say anything, but now that you've brought up being offended I feel compelled to do so. Use some common sense, for crying out loud, or at least some common courtesy.

It's his choice to discuss this topic, and I'm assuming that since he's doing so, he feels ready. Like i said, most everyone has gone through some sort of tragedy. Nobody here is blaming him, and no one said he could have done more, etc. All they've talked about is what can make life worth living. There are millions suffering who can be helped. Who is to blame for those we lost has never been important.

I said early in the thread that you can't stop all people who try to commit suicide from doing so. But you have to do what you can. He disagrees, evidently, so I don't quite understand how this is different from saying they're all hopeless. If there's nothing you can do, it's hopeless. Right? Sorry, but regardless of his experience, I do find his "eff 'em" attitude offensive. We need to care about each other, whether or not it makes us vulnerable. kj.