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Is college too easy?
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03-06-2011, 01:54 PM
Chakravartin wrote: This is the one area that I think that our schools fall really short. To me, they should teach kids how to study and take notes early in their school career. How can we expect kids to learn if they can't take good notes or study efficiently?
03-06-2011, 04:02 PM
Not sure I agree with the "high school is easier now" idea when in fact standards for graduation have become tougher in nearly every state, with more math, science, and foreign language required now than a few decades ago.
250,000 high school students take AP Calculus, 3 times more than in 1990. Lab science is now a requirement for graduation in many places. Proficiency exams are required for graduation now too, designed to eliminate that problem of graduating kids who lack the minimum math and reading standards. I know there's a lot of local variance, and the move towards national standards (core standards) will help.
03-06-2011, 06:11 PM
Grace62 wrote: oh, Grace62, if you lived in GA you'd understand. yes, more years of math and science are required but the curriculum is a mile wide and an inch deep. And proficency exams are a joke. case in point: GA has End of the Year exams in math. the results are listed as Exceeds Expectations, Meets Expectations, and Below Expectations. Last year only 51% of sophomores qualified as Meets Expectations or better. AND, the kicker is (and most parents don't know this as they don't dig) in order to meet expectations you only had to get 43%. that's right, just like in baseball if you get it right less than half the time you're doing great! the 'proficiency' exams here only weed out the truly illiterate not the woefully undereducated.
03-06-2011, 06:27 PM
Racer X wrote: Racer, please say you're joking...or at least exaggerating. Although, after my kids keep bringing up some of the gems in their college classes, I guess I shouldn't be too surprised. While I was driving in to work last Thursday, I received the following text from my son (he's in his Junior year in an engineering program): Just sat through a presentation where the group used the wrong form of 'their' the whole time. Thanks for nailing that into my head.
03-06-2011, 06:37 PM
graylocks wrote: oh, Grace62, if you lived in GA you'd understand. yes, more years of math and science are required but the curriculum is a mile wide and an inch deep. And proficency exams are a joke. case in point: GA has End of the Year exams in math. the results are listed as Exceeds Expectations, Meets Expectations, and Below Expectations. Last year only 51% of sophomores qualified as Meets Expectations or better. AND, the kicker is (and most parents don't know this as they don't dig) in order to meet expectations you only had to get 43%. that's right, just like in baseball if you get it right less than half the time you're doing great! the 'proficiency' exams here only weed out the truly illiterate not the woefully undereducated. The ramifications of this are nicely found in the University System of Georgia. The following link is to the latest data on recent high school graduates who enrolled at a University System college or university and the Learning Support requirement. Now, those students have all passed their graduation exams and proudly carry the "college prep" seal on their high school transcripts. But, when they are tested (by either the SAT or the COMPASS), they don't meet minimum standards for college level work, so they are required to take remedial classes to bring them up to the appropriate levels. Our research universities are fine (1% need Learning Support) and our state universities are ok (about 13% need Learning Support) but at our state colleges (50% need Learning Support) and 2 year colleges (60% need Learning Support), we've got a disaster. http://www.usg.edu/research/students/ls/...ll2008.pdf And, when we look at how those Learning Support students do, we typically find that 2 years after first enrollment, 48% of the Learning Support students are no longer enrolled, suggesting that they were not able to complete those Learning Support requirements in the 2 attempts allowed.
03-06-2011, 09:51 PM
graylocks wrote: oh, Grace62, if you lived in GA you'd understand. yes, more years of math and science are required but the curriculum is a mile wide and an inch deep. And proficency exams are a joke. case in point: GA has End of the Year exams in math. the results are listed as Exceeds Expectations, Meets Expectations, and Below Expectations. Last year only 51% of sophomores qualified as Meets Expectations or better. AND, the kicker is (and most parents don't know this as they don't dig) in order to meet expectations you only had to get 43%. that's right, just like in baseball if you get it right less than half the time you're doing great! the 'proficiency' exams here only weed out the truly illiterate not the woefully undereducated. Yes gl I very much understand...I grew up in South Carolina. I was blessed to attend very strong schools in a small college town and with parents who cared (and are educated themselves.) But the strong high school I attended in the late 70's is even better now and has more kids taking AP and a higher college attendance race, especially for minority students. But I know what it's like in other parts of the state, and that's why I'd very much like to see these core standards in place so that kids in ALL parts of the country are getting a shot at a good education, we can't let them down.
03-06-2011, 09:53 PM
Michael wrote: oh, Grace62, if you lived in GA you'd understand. yes, more years of math and science are required but the curriculum is a mile wide and an inch deep. And proficency exams are a joke. case in point: GA has End of the Year exams in math. the results are listed as Exceeds Expectations, Meets Expectations, and Below Expectations. Last year only 51% of sophomores qualified as Meets Expectations or better. AND, the kicker is (and most parents don't know this as they don't dig) in order to meet expectations you only had to get 43%. that's right, just like in baseball if you get it right less than half the time you're doing great! the 'proficiency' exams here only weed out the truly illiterate not the woefully undereducated. The ramifications of this are nicely found in the University System of Georgia. The following link is to the latest data on recent high school graduates who enrolled at a University System college or university and the Learning Support requirement. Now, those students have all passed their graduation exams and proudly carry the "college prep" seal on their high school transcripts. But, when they are tested (by either the SAT or the COMPASS), they don't meet minimum standards for college level work, so they are required to take remedial classes to bring them up to the appropriate levels. Our research universities are fine (1% need Learning Support) and our state universities are ok (about 13% need Learning Support) but at our state colleges (50% need Learning Support) and 2 year colleges (60% need Learning Support), we've got a disaster. http://www.usg.edu/research/students/ls/...ll2008.pdf And, when we look at how those Learning Support students do, we typically find that 2 years after first enrollment, 48% of the Learning Support students are no longer enrolled, suggesting that they were not able to complete those Learning Support requirements in the 2 attempts allowed. My question is why are you admitting those students who are not prepared or who lack aptitude? The SAT and the high school proficiency exams have very different goals - one is for college aptitude, the other is to show that a minimum baseline of learning has been met. I would never assume that a student who passed the graduation exam was prepared for college - that is not the purpose of the test. If the students don't do well enough on the SAT and haven't taken the right preparatory classes, what are they doing in your public colleges?
03-06-2011, 10:51 PM
Grace62 wrote: oh, Grace62, if you lived in GA you'd understand. yes, more years of math and science are required but the curriculum is a mile wide and an inch deep. And proficency exams are a joke. case in point: GA has End of the Year exams in math. the results are listed as Exceeds Expectations, Meets Expectations, and Below Expectations. Last year only 51% of sophomores qualified as Meets Expectations or better. AND, the kicker is (and most parents don't know this as they don't dig) in order to meet expectations you only had to get 43%. that's right, just like in baseball if you get it right less than half the time you're doing great! the 'proficiency' exams here only weed out the truly illiterate not the woefully undereducated. The ramifications of this are nicely found in the University System of Georgia. The following link is to the latest data on recent high school graduates who enrolled at a University System college or university and the Learning Support requirement. Now, those students have all passed their graduation exams and proudly carry the "college prep" seal on their high school transcripts. But, when they are tested (by either the SAT or the COMPASS), they don't meet minimum standards for college level work, so they are required to take remedial classes to bring them up to the appropriate levels. Our research universities are fine (1% need Learning Support) and our state universities are ok (about 13% need Learning Support) but at our state colleges (50% need Learning Support) and 2 year colleges (60% need Learning Support), we've got a disaster. http://www.usg.edu/research/students/ls/...ll2008.pdf And, when we look at how those Learning Support students do, we typically find that 2 years after first enrollment, 48% of the Learning Support students are no longer enrolled, suggesting that they were not able to complete those Learning Support requirements in the 2 attempts allowed. My question is why are you admitting those students who are not prepared or who lack aptitude? The SAT and the high school proficiency exams have very different goals - one is for college aptitude, the other is to show that a minimum baseline of learning has been met. I would never assume that a student who passed the graduation exam was prepared for college - that is not the purpose of the test. If the students don't do well enough on the SAT and haven't taken the right preparatory classes, what are they doing in your public colleges? But they have taken the college preparatory classes. That's how they get the "college prep" seal on their high school transcripts. That is supposed to certify that they are college ready. But in reality many are not; that's why we have Learning Support. I think that the high schools might consider why we need to have Learning Support for students who graduated high school with a college prep seal and many with a 3.0 gpa so they get the Hope Scholarship in GA. We admit under-prepared students because we are taxpayer-supported and they are taxpayers. We do have institutions that are very competitive, so they only admit students whose SAT scores (or football ability!) indicate a high probability of success. But, the state colleges, 2 year colleges and 3 of the state universities are "open access," so we get many under-prepared students at those institutions. And many of those same students end up doing great. That's what those institutions are there for--to give the students a shot. I chose to teach at an open access college, so I certainly don't have a problem with that. It's wonderful to see those under-prepared students who do rise to the occasion and succeed. I do find it frustrating, however, that retention and graduation rates are regularly touted as the primary measure of success. But, that's a political thing in higher education right now, and I'm betting it will get worse before it gets better.
03-06-2011, 11:00 PM
OK, I see the challenge. I have some idea of what the Georgia public education system has been like, particularly for minorities and kids living in rural areas. The chance to move beyond that is important. Good for you for sticking with these kids and giving them an important opportunity, even when they don't show up as well-prepared as they could be.
03-07-2011, 12:27 AM
40% of MN high school graduates need remedial prep classes for taking college math or English.
Only 30% of the ACT-taking (and presumably college-bound) students score high enough on the biology portion of the exam to enable them to pass a college biology course. I was a full professor at a Big Ten university and left four years ago for a smaller and private graduate/medical training institution. In my time as a Big Ten professor (in less than 15 years), college seemed to go from a highly desired destination (with immediate job opportunities) to just 4 more years of high school in preparation for more post bac or other training. Our college grads also have the highest unemployment rate in the 50 years it's been recorded. There is no question in my mind that the entire system has slipped, with reduced expectations across the board. |
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