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[ups] help me shop for a new ups
#21
mattkime wrote:
this thread would indicate that it does - https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2728724?start=0&tstart=0

if it does and i have a simpler/older power supply, what happens?

Absolutely nothing so long as the UPS is rated for more than the maximum draw of the power supply from the computer and all of the other devices that are attached.

Otherwise you may have a brief dip in the power or break in the power or hear an overload alarm when you first boot the computer.

It has nothing to do with the "wave type." (No idea why spiff would bring that up in this context.) Devices with PFC are capable of suddenly kicking up to their maximum power draw when first powered on even though the ordinary demand on them is much less. So, a PFC PSU for a modern desktop tower computer that draws 240w during ordinary operation might pull 720w when you first flip the power switch. If your UPS can't handle the sudden demand then bad stuff can happen.

PFC is a non-issue so long as you follow the guideline of getting a UPS that's rated for at least twice the sum of the maximum draw of all the devices that will be attached to it. You're not likely to tax a BR1500 to the point where you'd ever see such a problem.
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#22
Hi everyone,

I decided to call APC for information and found out a few things. The first is that Mac Pros do have PFC power supplies. My office's 20.1" Imac with a 2.4 GHz Core 2 Duo has a non-PFC power supply.

APC said step wave UPSs _can_ cause problems for computers that have PFC power supplies. Apparently, PFC power supplies are more sensitive than non-PFC power supplies to fluctuations in the waves. The fluctuations of step wave juice can cause them to turn off. Not a proper shutdown. A plain turn off, as if you pulled the plug. As you can imagine this can in fact cause all sorts of issues, hence their suggestion to use a SMARTups UPSs with sine wave output for machines that have PFC power supplies.

APC didn't mention anything about initial power draw. Just the sensitivity to non sine wave output.

I also contacted Apple and am waiting to hear back from then on the matter.

Robert
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#23
thanks for the research!
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#24
Matt,

My pleasure. I figured, we're talking about it, why not contact APC and Apple and get their thoughts on the matter. Definitely glad I made the call. I'll post what I find out from Apple after I hear back from them.

Robert
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#25
Robert M wrote:
Hi everyone,
APC said step wave UPSs _can_ cause problems for computers that have PFC power supplies. Apparently, PFC power supplies are more sensitive than non-PFC power supplies to fluctuations in the waves...

APC didn't mention anything about initial power draw. Just the sensitivity to non sine wave output.

I get the confusion now. We're addressing the same thing from two different perspectives.

This is APC's official statement on the matter of PFC power supplies:
http://nam-en.apc.com/app/answers/detail...-their-use

Relevant excerpt:
Although computer power supplies draw only a fraction of their full capacity during it’s steady state(normal operation), PFC power supplies have the potential to draw their full capability during initial inrush. "Inrush" or "Inrush Current" refers to the maximum instantaneous input current drawn by an electrical device when first turned on.

A computer’s power supply may also be subjected to a period of inrush, while the UPS is changing state (switching from utility power to battery power and back). Back-UPS and Smart-UPS SCs may experience up to an 8ms transfer time during this period. This is just long enough to remove power from the PFC power supply, resulting in a momentary inrush of the PFC. Once the UPS changes states from "Online" (passing utility power) to "Onbattery" (passing power from the UPS's internal battery), the momentary inrush from the attched equipment subjects the UPS to the PFC power supply’s maximum power draw, resulting in a potential Overload condition or dropped load.


And this is their white paper on the subject:
http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/RMUZ-..._R1_EN.pdf [pdf]

Notice that they discuss overloads, not wave-forms. The overload is the primary concern. The waveform effects the type of behavior that you might expect after an overload. But the overload is the really bad and easily preventable thing.

When there's an overdraw condition, if the timing is perfect there's the potential for a tiny gap in power in a stepped sine wave product where a pure sine wave product will simply provide less power at that moment. Instead of a brownout you get a blackout.

But it's not gonna happen unless you exceed the normal operating capacity of the UPS.

It's an issue with servers because of redundant power supplies. Peak draw from one PSU on startup may be far less than the UPSs rated capacity, but the second power supply -- which ordinarily draws negligible power -- may double that peak draw when first powered up. If you don't factor in the second PSU when calculating the capacity of the UPS for your rack, you could blow the whole rack.

But it's not an issue if you've calculated the capacity of the UPS properly. And the rule of thumb that says to get a UPS with twice the capacity that you think you'll need covers that situation very well.
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#26
Chak,

Good post but despite it, I'm inclined to follow the advice offered by APC when I spoke to them. Buy online UPSs that offer sine wave output for machines with PFC power supplies. Seems like a simple enough solution. Factor in discounts and the many options available, and you don't have to spend an arm and a leg for it. Even then, if you're spending two, three, four or more thousand dollars on your computer and associated hardware, i.e. Drobo, then a bit more for a good UPS of the recommended caliber is a worthwhile expense.

Robert
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