Gov't wants to bail out the big three.

[JoeH]

Sounds like you got one of the ones in it for the long term. One who understands that they might be representing the seller in a sale now, but you might be the seller sometime down the road. Many good ones are out there. Unfortunately they are not the only ones out there. Many of the problem brokers and realtors rushed into the business over the last decade because selling real estate was the current "hot" sales market. Make some quick money and move on to the next hot sales field when real estate goes cold. Very easy to adjust figures from a perspective buyer to make a higher price be "affordable".

[Seacrest]

The whole enterprise was destined to blow up from the start.
Anyone who claims they didn't know what they were signing or that they didn't understand the basic tenets of mortgage finance is a bald-faced liar.

I am particularly calling out the older generation -- those who had already paid off their first mortgages decades ago and decided (I'll concede a few were 'coerced') to double-down at the home equity craps table.

They came up in a time when the point of getting a mortgage was to eventually pay it off.
They KNEW that these trick, neg-am, exploding ARM, optional payment nonsense was just kicking cans down the road. The fact is they didn't care. Slick salesmen, or their kids, or advertising convinced them that "it's different this time. You can spend all this money now, only a fool would wait."

The whole country has been living in a debt-fueled fantasy world for twenty-five (or more) odd years.
The time for repayment will eventually arrive. All we're doing with these bailouts is pushing the day of reckoning off onto our kids and grandkids, and paying the same people who failed us in the process.

[AlphaDog]

Seacrest wrote: I am particularly calling out the older generation -- those who had already paid off their first mortgages decades ago and decided (I'll concede a few were 'coerced') to double-down at the home equity craps table.

I think I resent that. This house was purchased 17 years ago on a 30 year mortgage that also happened to be an ARM. It was refinanced once, back in the mid 90s, when we could get a good fixed rate and a 15 year loan for less than we'd been paying. It's now paid off and actually has been for a while, because virtually every penny of each of my paychecks went to the mortgage payment. No, we did not take out equity when we refinanced, and there never was a second on it.

I really wish that somewhere we could find solid statistics that provide a profile of the people who are now in this mess. I've seen some reports that many of the foreclosures, especially the first of the wave starting mid 2007, were investors who purchased homes and then got stuck with them. Those people aren't even entitled to a bailout. I've also seen the sad tales of people who did "over buy", but they did that because the rapidly increasing price of houses made them fear the situation would only get worse, and, if they were ever going to buy a house, they had to take the plunge. There are also people who had good, solid credit and made reasonable buying decisions, but they had an unanticipated disaster strike - such as catastrophic illness or the loss of a job that should have been secure. Those things happen to people all the time, yet now they're getting tarred with the same brush as the irresponsible ones. And, I have no doubt there are many who simply over bought, taking the calculated risk that their income would continue to rise. Furthermore, I do think others were duped, but they're probably the same ones who answer e-mails and help that poor guy from Russia get his family's fortune out of the country. There are a lot of people out there who just ain't real smart, unlike those of us who hang out here.

I keep hearing people want to place blame in just one spot, and I don't think it's that simple.

[Seacrest]

AlphaDog wrote:
[quote=Seacrest]I am particularly calling out the older generation -- those who had already paid off their first mortgages decades ago and decided (I'll concede a few were 'coerced') to double-down at the home equity craps table.

I think I resent that. This house was purchased 17 years ago on a 30 year mortgage that also happened to be an ARM. It was refinanced once, back in the mid 90s, when we could get a good fixed rate and a 15 year loan for less than we'd been paying. It's now paid off and actually has been for a while, because virtually every penny of each of my paychecks went to the mortgage payment. No, we did not take out equity when we refinanced, and there never was a second on it.
But you are not one of the ones I was talking about.
I am only calling out older people who took on the pick-a-payment, adjustable rate loans (why get an adjustable loan when rates are at, basically the lowest they will EVER possibly be? there is only one way for the rate to adjust -- UP), not ALL older people.

AlphaDog wrote:
I keep hearing people want to place blame in just one spot, and I don't think it's that simple.

Trust me, I DO NOT place blame in any 'one spot'.
If you care to seek out my older posts on this topic, you'd know I pretty much blame EVERYBODY -- banks, borrowers, Wall Street, Main Street, rich people, poor people, Democrats, Republicans, Al Queda, Al Greenspan, Joe the Plumber, Nick the Pig, Freddie Mac, Bernie Mac, the Chinese, Mac 'n' Cheese, Standard and Poors, Big and Rich...

[rgG]

Seacrest wrote:
If you care to seek out my older posts on this topic, you'd know I pretty much blame EVERYBODY -- banks, borrowers, Wall Street, Main Street, rich people, poor people, Democrats, Republicans, Al Queda, Al Greenspan, Joe the Plumber, Nick the Pig, Freddie Mac, Bernie Mac, the Chinese, Mac 'n' Cheese, Standard and Poors, Big and Rich...

Note, BunBun is completely blameless.

[AlphaDog]

My point is that I don't think any group can be "called out" as being particularly culpable, unless it's that group on the other side - the banks, mortgage brokers, Freddie and Fannie, Wall Street, Standard & Poors, Standard & Rich, and anyone else in a position to make money off of this, temporarily, at least. Like I said, I'd like to see some real numbers, although I seriously doubt they exist. Someday we might see them in retrospect, but not all of the skeletons are out of the closet yet.

Now, I really don't think old Mac 'n' Cheese had any part in that, but I bet the Chinese did!

[karsen]

rgG wrote:
[quote=Seacrest]
If you care to seek out my older posts on this topic, you'd know I pretty much blame EVERYBODY -- banks, borrowers, Wall Street, Main Street, rich people, poor people, Democrats, Republicans, Al Queda, Al Greenspan, Joe the Plumber, Nick the Pig, Freddie Mac, Bernie Mac, the Chinese, Mac 'n' Cheese, Standard and Poors, Big and Rich...

Note, BunBun is completely blameless.
BunBun was the mastermind. Look at those horns!

[decocritter]

Most people get their realtors, through referrals. I have used several, and they were all beyond helpful and ethical.

A person really has to be turning a blind eye, and jumping into a mortgage and real estate purchase, with absolutely no thought, whatsoever, to say they did not understand what they were getting into.

Many things were reviewed again with the closing attorney, before closing.


I don't feel sorry for people who re-financed with junk mortgages, to buy cars, redo a kitchen or take a vacation, etc. Many people want it all, and now, and do not care to research their choices. Not my, or the Governments fault or problem. I am sick of these crybabies.

If you can't research a mortgage or get help doing so, you should not buy a home.

I do believe that there needs to be higher standards and practices, as well as thorough income verification. Some brokers are clueless, and some lack ethics...and there should be checks and balances.

I truly believe that most of these problems are from people that just live beyond their means, in every aspect of their lives.

[JoeH]

decocritter wrote:

I truly believe that most of these problems are from people that just live beyond their means, in every aspect of their lives.

You are welcome to believe that if you want, but don't expect others to without some actual proof. State it as your belief, opinion, what have you, but that does not make it fact. The initial statistics coming out of this mess don't support it, what you believe is appearing to be representative of a minority of those in trouble. Give it another few years, more information should come out to show where and who went wrong.

[kj]

It will be interesting to see why the people who are losing their houses thought they could afford them. The people I know were living beyond their means. They didn't have to read the "fine print" to know. One family had an 800k house on 80k a yr., and were living like rock stars on home equity loans. Another had 2 8.50/hr. incomes and a 250k house with 2 new cars.

All the RV businesses seem to be closing here. They sold 4-wheelers to people for outrageously low monthly payments, and the people who bought them can't even afford those payments (nor the gas to run them). I just think people have been using credit to live in an ultra-greedy manner. It can't be allowed to continue, and I think the bailouts do that, to some extent. They just delay the crash. It's been so long since I've heard anyone say, "Money's not everything." It might be good for us all to re-learn that lesson. kj.