05-10-2007, 08:12 AM
> At any rate, this is a fairly commonly quoted verse:
>
> "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from
> yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast"
> (Ephesians 2:8,9).
>
> The choice is whether to have this faith.
What about original sin?
What about someone who believs in God's "grace," but who nevertheless works on a Sunday?
You're saying that all Catholics and Protestants and Anglicans and Mormons and Reformists and all of the other Christians can throw away their bibles and forget about all of the rules they are taught because merely accepting god's "grace" is enough to get them into heaven?
Which book says that? Where's God's signature on the affidavit? And why hasn't the Pope said anything about this?
> You don't tell god what needs to happen.
That's not what I said. One simply cannot have been said to have made a choice under God's (or anyone's) rules without having first made an informed consent to those rules.
No clear rules = no choice.
You seem to be saying that there's only one absolute rule that speaks vaguely about accepting God's "grace." And you imply that all Christians should know this rule and hold it as the one and only absolute rule, thus having a "choice" about whether to follow it or go to hell.
That doesn't make any sense. Even if one could construct a clear rule from your quote, in order for that rule to offer humans a "choice," infants would need to have the comprehension of a competent adult.
Under your scheme, a newborn infant who worshiped his parents would go to hell and that would be utterly appropriate because he had fair warning that he had to worship God in his grace first and foremost.
That simply defies all logic and observed facts. We are not made with a clear set of rules imprinted on our brains from God.
>
> "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from
> yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast"
> (Ephesians 2:8,9).
>
> The choice is whether to have this faith.
What about original sin?
What about someone who believs in God's "grace," but who nevertheless works on a Sunday?
You're saying that all Catholics and Protestants and Anglicans and Mormons and Reformists and all of the other Christians can throw away their bibles and forget about all of the rules they are taught because merely accepting god's "grace" is enough to get them into heaven?
Which book says that? Where's God's signature on the affidavit? And why hasn't the Pope said anything about this?
> You don't tell god what needs to happen.
That's not what I said. One simply cannot have been said to have made a choice under God's (or anyone's) rules without having first made an informed consent to those rules.
No clear rules = no choice.
You seem to be saying that there's only one absolute rule that speaks vaguely about accepting God's "grace." And you imply that all Christians should know this rule and hold it as the one and only absolute rule, thus having a "choice" about whether to follow it or go to hell.
That doesn't make any sense. Even if one could construct a clear rule from your quote, in order for that rule to offer humans a "choice," infants would need to have the comprehension of a competent adult.
Under your scheme, a newborn infant who worshiped his parents would go to hell and that would be utterly appropriate because he had fair warning that he had to worship God in his grace first and foremost.
That simply defies all logic and observed facts. We are not made with a clear set of rules imprinted on our brains from God.