05-11-2007, 07:56 AM
> I'm not sure how you are referring to "original sin". It does mean a lot of different things to
> different people. The protestant (as well as some others) view is that Jesus's death atoned
> for this. That's where the grace thing comes from. We are sinful by nature, will sin, and
> nothing we can do would earn us a place in heaven. Only through god's grace...
The discussion started out about Catholics. Are you saying that when Catholics follow their "rules" they don't get into heaven because it's the wrong set of rules?
Many rules in Catholicism deal with "original sin." Fundamentally, original sin means that people are created as sinners before they are even aware. One can't make a "choice" to be a sinner if sin is imposed upon you before your neurons are differentiated.
In this hierarchy of rules there is no "choice" to be made.
You're saying that the Catholics are wrong? When did God tell you that, exactly?
> I guess the way it works is that we know god wants us to devote a day to him (the
> sabbath). Doing so gets us no closer to being in heaven, but ignoring what god wants
> brings you closer to denying he is your god.
What if the book is wrong and it's okay to ignore the sabbath? Under your rule, is it okay to have killed someone for failing to honor the sabbath if you still believe in God's grace? You'll still go to heaven, right? Because for you the big rule is just that you have to believe in God's grace and all the stuff in the various bibles are just suggestions. Is that right?
> It tells us more than how to get to heaven. How to live the life God wants, how to
> strengthen our faith, how to help others with their faith, etc. etc. Being saved isn't
> necessarily dependent on it all, but if your saved, you want to do good.
But throwing away all of those rules is still okay under your theory -- murdering someone, coveting your neighbor's wife, failing to knock out your wife's teeth when she talks back to you. That's all okay so long as you believe in God's grace, right? That's your rule?
> > Which book says that? Where's God's signature on the affidavit? And why hasn't the
> > Pope said anything about this?
>
> I gave you one quote, and there are lots of others to this effect.
Okay, I see the source of the confusion.
I asked for the rules as laid out by God. The rules that give us a "choice" between heaven and hell. You gave me a quote about God's grace and said that the choice is about having faith.
Okay, but which faith?
There are a lot of bibles out there and a lot of conflicting verses.
If you insist that there are clear rules, an offer of proof is what traditionally follows that. Thus, I construed your quote as your offer of proof. That the "rule" and the faith were about God's grace.
Are you now saying that what you proffered was not an attempt to present a "rule" of which obeying gets one into heaven?
If that's not the exclusive rule then WHAT EXACTLY is the set of rules that we must follow? The real, 100% authoritative rules. Not some arbitrary selection from one small subset of one particular religion, but the actual rules as laid out by God.
Without them, the game is rigged. Faith may or MAY NOT be a requirement to get into heaven. Maybe just being good to your fellow man is sufficient. Maybe God wants you to take up war and conquer your neighbors. It's a crap shoot.
> in the end, we're not sending the child there, so I don't know why we can't just let god
> do what he wants, and leave it at that.
Some people love their children and would feel better if their children were sent to heaven when they died instead of being tortured for eternity in hell for a trespass that was beyond anyone's capacity to control.
We don't KNOW if that's God's will or not.
But if we accept the rules of the religions that require that people have to make certain conscious choices before they can get into heaven then those infants will be excluded from heaven.
Surely, as a matter of human decency those babies deserve at least a moment of thought on their behalf. Or does God not want us to have sympathy?
> As far as the logical inconsistency, I'm sure god can figure it out.
Of course GOD KNOWS THE RULES because God made the game up. And if God is omniscient, knowing things kind of goes with the territory.
But WE need to "figure it out" if we sincerely want to go to heaven.
Wouldn't you be just a little bit pissed off if say... Charles Manson got to heaven and you were sent to hell because of a tiny misalignment in beliefs? Because you followed the wrong bible. Because your faith, though strong, was not exactly the sort of faith that God was looking for?
> I'm comfortable saying I don't know.
Then you're not the right person to be advocating a particular rule or set of rules to get into heaven. When you have a rule or set of rules that show how to get into heaven then please come back and tell us.
> > That simply defies all logic and observed facts. We are not made with a clear set of
> > rules imprinted on our brains from God.
>
> I guess so, but we aren't talking science here.
No, not science. Reason. Intelligence. The capacity to ask questions, seek answers and to learn from one's experiences.
Resigning from thinking deeply about faith seems to me to create a very poor foundation for that faith. Would God really want such shallow adherents?
If you believe that God made mankind and endowed man with gifts to distinguish us from the common animals then man's intelligence is a gift from God. Isn't it disrespectful not to use such a gift?
> different people. The protestant (as well as some others) view is that Jesus's death atoned
> for this. That's where the grace thing comes from. We are sinful by nature, will sin, and
> nothing we can do would earn us a place in heaven. Only through god's grace...
The discussion started out about Catholics. Are you saying that when Catholics follow their "rules" they don't get into heaven because it's the wrong set of rules?
Many rules in Catholicism deal with "original sin." Fundamentally, original sin means that people are created as sinners before they are even aware. One can't make a "choice" to be a sinner if sin is imposed upon you before your neurons are differentiated.
In this hierarchy of rules there is no "choice" to be made.
You're saying that the Catholics are wrong? When did God tell you that, exactly?
> I guess the way it works is that we know god wants us to devote a day to him (the
> sabbath). Doing so gets us no closer to being in heaven, but ignoring what god wants
> brings you closer to denying he is your god.
What if the book is wrong and it's okay to ignore the sabbath? Under your rule, is it okay to have killed someone for failing to honor the sabbath if you still believe in God's grace? You'll still go to heaven, right? Because for you the big rule is just that you have to believe in God's grace and all the stuff in the various bibles are just suggestions. Is that right?
> It tells us more than how to get to heaven. How to live the life God wants, how to
> strengthen our faith, how to help others with their faith, etc. etc. Being saved isn't
> necessarily dependent on it all, but if your saved, you want to do good.
But throwing away all of those rules is still okay under your theory -- murdering someone, coveting your neighbor's wife, failing to knock out your wife's teeth when she talks back to you. That's all okay so long as you believe in God's grace, right? That's your rule?
> > Which book says that? Where's God's signature on the affidavit? And why hasn't the
> > Pope said anything about this?
>
> I gave you one quote, and there are lots of others to this effect.
Okay, I see the source of the confusion.
I asked for the rules as laid out by God. The rules that give us a "choice" between heaven and hell. You gave me a quote about God's grace and said that the choice is about having faith.
Okay, but which faith?
There are a lot of bibles out there and a lot of conflicting verses.
If you insist that there are clear rules, an offer of proof is what traditionally follows that. Thus, I construed your quote as your offer of proof. That the "rule" and the faith were about God's grace.
Are you now saying that what you proffered was not an attempt to present a "rule" of which obeying gets one into heaven?
If that's not the exclusive rule then WHAT EXACTLY is the set of rules that we must follow? The real, 100% authoritative rules. Not some arbitrary selection from one small subset of one particular religion, but the actual rules as laid out by God.
Without them, the game is rigged. Faith may or MAY NOT be a requirement to get into heaven. Maybe just being good to your fellow man is sufficient. Maybe God wants you to take up war and conquer your neighbors. It's a crap shoot.
> in the end, we're not sending the child there, so I don't know why we can't just let god
> do what he wants, and leave it at that.
Some people love their children and would feel better if their children were sent to heaven when they died instead of being tortured for eternity in hell for a trespass that was beyond anyone's capacity to control.
We don't KNOW if that's God's will or not.
But if we accept the rules of the religions that require that people have to make certain conscious choices before they can get into heaven then those infants will be excluded from heaven.
Surely, as a matter of human decency those babies deserve at least a moment of thought on their behalf. Or does God not want us to have sympathy?
> As far as the logical inconsistency, I'm sure god can figure it out.
Of course GOD KNOWS THE RULES because God made the game up. And if God is omniscient, knowing things kind of goes with the territory.
But WE need to "figure it out" if we sincerely want to go to heaven.
Wouldn't you be just a little bit pissed off if say... Charles Manson got to heaven and you were sent to hell because of a tiny misalignment in beliefs? Because you followed the wrong bible. Because your faith, though strong, was not exactly the sort of faith that God was looking for?
> I'm comfortable saying I don't know.
Then you're not the right person to be advocating a particular rule or set of rules to get into heaven. When you have a rule or set of rules that show how to get into heaven then please come back and tell us.
> > That simply defies all logic and observed facts. We are not made with a clear set of
> > rules imprinted on our brains from God.
>
> I guess so, but we aren't talking science here.
No, not science. Reason. Intelligence. The capacity to ask questions, seek answers and to learn from one's experiences.
Resigning from thinking deeply about faith seems to me to create a very poor foundation for that faith. Would God really want such shallow adherents?
If you believe that God made mankind and endowed man with gifts to distinguish us from the common animals then man's intelligence is a gift from God. Isn't it disrespectful not to use such a gift?