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Kiva wrote:
[quote=kj]
In Idaho, a physical therapist can't do psych evals, but neither can a Sheriff (maybe in Cali ;-). At any rate, I'll go out on a limb and contend there isn't anyone who will ever know exactly why he did what he did. kj.
well, i do evals for a living and I stand by my previous statement. Schizophrenic, bipolar, or some sort of drug-induced psychosis / mania.
That's based on very little info, of course, but i've seen writing / thoughts like that before. Time will reveal more info.
kiva
I don't think anyone would argue that he doesn't fit something in the DSM, whether it is schizo, bipolar, whatever. But to say that explains why he did what he did would be incorrect. I work with people who look behaviorally just like him every day, and chances are, they will never do anything like this. Even if they did, that's a far cry from understanding anything. Unfortunately, Pam's term is every bit as accurate/useful as a psych term. The dude's messed up, and that's about the end of understanding, imo. kj.
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kj wrote:
[quote=Kiva]
[quote=kj]
In Idaho, a physical therapist can't do psych evals, but neither can a Sheriff (maybe in Cali ;-). At any rate, I'll go out on a limb and contend there isn't anyone who will ever know exactly why he did what he did. kj.
well, i do evals for a living and I stand by my previous statement. Schizophrenic, bipolar, or some sort of drug-induced psychosis / mania.
That's based on very little info, of course, but i've seen writing / thoughts like that before. Time will reveal more info.
kiva
I don't think anyone would argue that he doesn't fit something in the DSM, whether it is schizo, bipolar, whatever. But to say that explains why he did what he did would be incorrect. I work with people who look behaviorally just like him every day, and chances are, they will never do anything like this. Even if they did, that's a far cry from understanding anything. Unfortunately, Pam's term is every bit as accurate/useful as a psych term. The dude's messed up, and that's about the end of understanding, imo. kj.
yes, I am only speculating. Personally, i see a difference between somebody in the midst of a clinical manic episode or psychosis / schizophrenia and those conditions' relationship to potential violence and "other areas of the DSM" that he may fit.
If this guy was an unmedicated schizophrenic, that would explain a *lot*.
kiva
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Out of curiosity, what WOULD you do if you know someone similar to this (i.e. classmate or co-worker with what appears to have mental health issues)?
Off the top of my head, I can think of two co-workers I knew who fell into this category. One had a breakdown of some sort and ended up driving around the city, looking for "them" - the people who were after him. The other one seemed like someone who was going to go postal at any moment. I seriously considered wearing my bulletproof vest to work for awhile (I definitely would have been the first on his list) - he ended up committing suicide instead.
The first guy ended up being picked up by mental health authorities somehow, after his wife contacted them.
But for the second guy - what can you say to authorities - "my coworker seems angry and weird"? Sure, it's not ordinary behavior - but it doesn't seem to rise to the level of being something that you can lock someone up for either. I'm kinda curious what the groupthink is on this. There obviously were warning signs with this guy - what would/could have someone done?
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>>If this guy was an unmedicated schizophrenic, that would explain a *lot*.
In a nutshell, what do you think it explains that everyone doesn't already know? kj.
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kj wrote:
>>If this guy was an unmedicated schizophrenic, that would explain a *lot*.
In a nutshell, what do you think it explains that everyone doesn't already know? kj.
I think a differentiation can be made between somebody that is a cold, calculated 'killer' / has antisocial personality 'disorder' vs. a schizophrenic / bipolar / psychotic. With the latter, when taking medication, they can develop insight and/or remorse and have understanding of the nature of their behavior. With the former, it is extremely rare that they ever feel remorse and they typically do not respond to any mental health treatment.
Somebody can be "crazy" by layperson's standards and still be guilty as hell in court. Most are. We have a parent right now that is clearly paranoid and likely has a personality disorder. If you read some of the stuff she was writing from her prison cell, you would say, "she's nuts." but she is NOT psychotic and is fully aware of all her actions. She just has no insight into her role in the situations and how her behavior / attitudes contribute to the problem. With medicated schizophrenics / psychotics, they can develop insight they didn't not have or were incapable of having whilst engaging in the problem behavior.
Of course, those are the extremes. What I am most curious about is whether or not he is psychotic and/or manic and will be a completely different person on med's.
does that help? Sorry if i didn't explain myself better before.
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>>does that help? Sorry if i didn't explain myself better before.
Yeah, I see where you're coming from now. kj.
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from CNN:
Paul Callan, a criminal defense attorney and a former prosecutor, and Jeff Gardere, a clinical and forensic psychologist, said on CNN's "American Morning" on Tuesday they have doubts that an insanity plea would stand.
With the "amount of planning that went into this assassination," Callan said he believes "it's highly unlikely he will meet the legal insanity defense threshold."
"It's very hard to prove insanity at trial," he said. "You really have to prove that your mental illness is so severe that you don't even understand that you're committing a criminal act. And it's almost impossible to prove that.
so, legally, doesn't sound like he's getting insanity plea through...however, i will be very curious to see what sorts of mental health diagnoses are thrown out there...
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Why does he need the insanity plea? Everybody knows that Sarah Palin's bullseye made him do it. Open and shut case.
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Dakota wrote:
Why does he need the insanity plea? Everybody knows that Sarah Palin's bullseye made him do it. Open and shut case.
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Back to you kiva...
What I'm wondering about in addition to mental illness is his IQ.
More reports are coming in from teachers and neighbors who knew him when he was young, and from his string of employers. He has a lot of signs of MR, maybe not severe but low enough to keep him from developing normally. He couldn't follow or understand simple directions at school, at menial jobs, nor at volunteer jobs, leading to arguments with co-workers and eventually leading him to quit or get fired. Certainly couldn't handle normal social interactions. Sure he listed some heavy duty "favorite books" on a you tube video but there's no evidence so far that he ever read any of those.
Nevertheless I'm expecting a death penalty trial, I think most people are expecting that. The charge that's been filed makes him eligible for that, and the notes he left certainly indicate planning and intention. If not on the federal level, then Arizona could sentence him to death.
People shouldn't confuse an attempt to understand who he is and what led him to this heinous crime with an attempt to excuse him from accountability for that crime, but they will.
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