Vice Presidential Picks and the Art of War

[robfilms]

cbelt3/rgG-

for me it keeps coming down to judgement.

obama, though junior to many in the senate, stood up before the scrutiny of the press and loudly voted "NO" to send our troops into iraq.

mccain went along with the bush policy and voted yes.

obama faced the juggernaut of the clinton campaign, hires/inspires and changes the classic "how-to run" campaign book and strikes lightening.

mccain keeps hiring and firing staff and only finds "his" voice when he gives over to the party of bush.

obama picks his veep joe biden , a long-time senator with years of foreign policy experience.

mccain picks an unknown lightweight who gives him credibility to the theocracy of the religious right.

i'll try the newcomer obama because i trust his judgement. no one gave this man anything. his daddy didn't get him into the naval academy. he didn't marry into wealth. obama worked at his success and whether he is everything a president should be, well, perhaps we will find out. by his actions above, i already see what john mccain is and more importantly, what he is not.

just one person's opinion.

ymmv

be well

rob

[Black Landlord]

[quote rgG]SteveO,
Thanks for the link. Where, exactly he is going to get the money to do all those things without crippling the economy? Tell me exactly how he intends to bring the troops home without destabilizing the area.

The Democrats need to prove that their numbers add up. Promising things like: "Create a New $7,000 Tax Credit for Purchasing Advanced Vehicles," and "Create Millions of New Green Jobs" and "Weatherize One Million Homes Annually" can't be done for free. They also promise: "Put 1 million Plug-In Hybrid cars -- cars that can get up to 150 miles per gallon -- on the road by 2015," and "Provide $50 billion to Jumpstart the Economy and Prevent 1 Million Americans from Losing Their Jobs," and this is before we even mention how he would fix health care and pay for that.

I am afraid of a tax and spend administration. I want to see fiscal responsibility from the next administration. I am afraid the Democrats are promising far more than they can deliver and just saying what people want to hear.

Here is a quote from your link:
Simplify Tax Filings for Middle Class Americans: Obama will dramatically simplify tax filings so that millions of Americans will be able to do their taxes in less than five minutes. Obama will ensure that the IRS uses the information it already gets from banks and employers to give taxpayers the option of pre-filled tax forms to verify, sign and return. Experts estimate that the Obama proposal will save Americans up to 200 million total hours of work and aggravation and up to $2 billion in tax preparer fees.

Do you really believe that? Kool-aid, that is the Kool-aid talking. The man has no record of accomplishing any of these goals. He may be capable but he is untested. If he had say 12 years in the Senate and could point to legislation he had gotten passed and bridges he had built, then maybe I would be convinced. Right now, all I know is that he is a consummate politician and he has been very successful getting himself nominated.

I admire his intellect and his drive, but I am suspicious of his swift rise. I would prefer that he be more seasoned. I think McCain is past his prime and I think Obama is running before his prime. So now I have a very difficult choice to make.
You don't owe anyone an announcement of who you're voting for, but, following your posts, I formed a pretty clear impression that you intend to vote for McCain. Kind of surprising to see you present yourself as a "could go either way".

[decocritter]

Why would anyone be surprised that someone could be undecided, as to their vote? Especially in a goofy election like this one?

All four candidates on the ballot are questionable. I can't believe this is the best either the Dems or Repubs put up for this election.

Why would anyone be shocked that some people are not "sheeple" and might want to know what is in the Kool-Aid before they drink it?

[SteveO]

As I said, if you drill down in the site you can find specifics on a lot if not all of that stuff. Not that I need to or should be explaining this -- as an American, you should be out seeking this info yourself from the source (Obama's site) and not from hearsay ... but for starters on how some of this would be funded, Obama plans to roll back the tax breaks and corp welfare that Bush gave the RICHEST AMERICANS, OIL companies and corporations ... which all adds up to millions (perhaps billions) of dollars.. Did you know that corporations pay very little income tax? The American tax burden is pretty solidly on the middle class, period. So when you see those McCain TV spots saying Obama is going to raise taxes, yeah, he's going to raise taxes but not on the middle class...he's going to raise them on the super-rich who are not paying their fair share!

As for how Obama will get our troops out without destabilizing the region...um, in case you didn't notice, WE were the ones who destabilized the region. (!) And Obama has said that he will withdraw troops in a measured manner in consultation with the Iraqi government and other nations in the region to ensure the most stability possible. The Bush administration has recently adopted this policy as well. We don't belong there and are not wanted there. Our troops are dying every day, and all for what? Nothing! The hubris of cooked-up intelligence to start a false war. And where is boogeyman Osama bin Laden? He is on the loose, STILL. After 7 years!

At this point, in all honesty and candor, I don't know how any sensible American can support a McCain candidacy given his ownership by the religious wackjobs of his party, his short temper, and his poor, poor judgement and decision-making skills. He has jettisoned the "straight talk express" maverick team that nearly got him the party's nomination in 2000 and instead hired the man who dragged his name through the South Carolina mud, Tucker Eskew.

This is the guy that did a phone poll asking people what they would think if they found out McCain had an illegitimate black child. Never mind that this was a 100% fabrication. It sunk McCain, and W became the nominee. As I say, I used to be a huge McCain fan. Until he sold out to the Rove people. I cannot tell you how sad this makes me as an American. Here was a man of principle who put country over party. WAS being the operative word there. Now he is a one-dimensional shadow of what he was, a caricature. And he knows it.

[SteveO]

[quote rgG]I admire his intellect and his drive, but I am suspicious of his swift rise. I would prefer that he be more seasoned. I think McCain is past his prime and I think Obama is running before his prime.[/quote rgG]

Just so you know, Obama IS in his prime and has been helping Americans in elected office for 10+ years now. Before that, he worked in public service helping inner city underprivileged poor. He chose to take a terribly underpaid position helping the poor instead of taking a Supreme Court Clerkship which would have been hugely lucrative and would have fast-tracked his career, did you know this?

Barack Obama is a constitutional scholar and edited the Harvard Law Review. Do you know how incredibly gifted this man is and what a gift he would be to this nation as president? Not since JFK has there been a candidate with this much promise for our nation. Have you been asleep the past four years? Go watch his speeches, read up on him, get to know the man and what he stands for...which is America and doing the right thing.

[rgG]

[quote Black Landlord]
You don't owe anyone an announcement of who you're voting for, but, following your posts, I formed a pretty clear impression that you intend to vote for McCain. Kind of surprising to see you present yourself as a "could go either way".
No, I am wholehearted undecided. I was leaning toward McCain, mostly because I really liked him in 2000, but I was awaiting his VP pick. Well, he blew it for me on that one. So now I am leaning towards Obama. I am more afraid of the Democratic party in general than Obama in specific. I am also afraid of the Republicans, but thought the old McCain was enough of a rebel to cross party lines and build a coalition. Now it looks more and more like he has sold out to the right wingers-deal killer for me.

I am struggling with the same question I always seem to struggle with, who is likely to do less harm. I would really like to be FOR someone rather than just have to settle, but that doesn't seem to be in the cards this time.

I am not a Kool-Aid drinker for Obama, but I am happy there are people who are inspired by him. I think his being nominated is historic and that in itself may do a lot of good to inspire kids who are from either a minority background or not as well off as most who go into politics.

My problem is that I am about equally split on the issues, half with the Democrats, half with the Republicans. The problem is that the parties seem to get further and further apart and less and less likely to work together. What are true independent voters to do. We need a third party. A party that is progressive socially but conservative fiscally. Unfortunately we don't have that choice and even if there was a third party candidate, it would be a wasted vote, they can't beat either machine. Therein lies my dilemma and I think I am not alone.

[rgG]

[quote SteveO]
Just so you know, Obama IS in his prime and has been helping Americans in elected office for 10+ years now. Before that, he worked in public service helping inner city underprivileged poor. He chose to take a terribly underpaid position helping the poor instead of taking a Supreme Court Clerkship which would have been hugely lucrative and would have fast-tracked his career, did you know this?

Barack Obama is a constitutional scholar and edited the Harvard Law Review. Do you know how incredibly gifted this man is and what a gift he would be to this nation as president? Not since JFK has there been a candidate with this much promise for our nation. Have you been asleep the past four years? Go watch his speeches, read up on him, get to know the man and what he stands for...which is America and doing the right thing.
SteveO,
I watched the same CNN profile of Obama that you apparently watched, since the points you make are the same ones I saw in the piece. It was informative and I came away with a better idea of who he was. However, he has not served long enough on the national scene to suit me. Because I would like him to be more experienced does not make me a bad person. As I just said in my post above, I am leaning towards voting for him. However, people like you who act like anyone who questions him in any way is an idiot really turn me off. I don't drink anyone's Kool-Aid, not even Steve Jobs, the original "Oh Yeah", man. I have a right to make up my own mind and I am doing my research, I do not need people like you trying to make me feel like I am an idiot if I question his experience.

[SteveO]

rgG, the party you're wanting is the party I'm wanting as well...and actually it was largely in session during the Clinton era. Clinton ended up taking us from a deficit to a huge surplus while supporting some social programs (not enough imho, but some). The nation was prosperous under Clinton, whatever people like to say about the man (and I don't blame them), he ran a good government ship. W squandered all that, but now we must look forward.

I didn't used to be as big an Obama supporter as I am now (and I still have a few issues with him), but the alternative is simply too much for me to take. It sickens my heart to know that McCain would continue Bush's bad foreign policies, Gitmo, lack of constitutional protections for US citizens, Palin, etc.

[Ted King]

rgG, just curious, what do mean when you say you are looking for someone who is fiscally conservative?

[rgG]

By fiscally conservative I mean not spending more than we can realistically afford. Which we always seem to be doing under Republicans and Democrats. I would love to have all the social programs we can, but I believe we have to spend only as much as we can pay for. We need to prioritize our programs and not keep going deeper and deeper into debt. I don't want a tax and spend mentality in the White House or the Congress.

I don't run up debt I can't pay and I don't think the government should either. I know there will always be extenuating circumstances that will call for debt, but it should not become a way of life, like it has for so many people and apparently the government, too.