All Babies Go to Heaven

[Lux Interior]

[quote MacMagus] We are not made with a clear set of rules imprinted on our brains from God.

But he does clarify things from time to time:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28151

[kj]

What about original sin?

I'm not sure how you are referring to "original sin". It does mean a lot of different things to different people. The protestant (as well as some others) view is that Jesus's death atoned for this. That's where the grace thing comes from. We are sinful by nature, will sin, and nothing we can do would earn us a place in heaven. Only through god's grace...

>>What about someone who believs in God's "grace," but who nevertheless works on a Sunday?

I guess the way it works is that we know god wants us to devote a day to him (the sabbath). Doing so gets us no closer to being in heaven, but ignoring what god wants brings you closer to denying he is your god. That's where repenting, struggling, trying, to do the right thing is what a person with faith would do. How do we know whether someone is really trying? That decision is reserved for god, although people, being imperfect often try to make this judgement. At any rate, no, working on the sabbath does not send you to hell.


>>>You're saying that all Catholics and Protestants and Anglicans and Mormons and Reformists and all of the other Christians can throw away their bibles and forget about all of the rules they are taught because merely accepting god's "grace" is enough to get them into heaven?

No, they shouldn't just throw them out. It tells us more than how to get to heaven. How to live the life God wants, how to strengthen our faith, how to help others with their faith, etc. etc. Being saved isn't necessarily dependent on it all, but if your saved, you want to do good.

>>>Which book says that? Where's God's signature on the affidavit? And why hasn't the Pope said anything about this?

I gave you one quote, and there are lots of others to this effect. I don't know why you tend to speak of things in terms of law, since most people think there are standards or values that transcend law. I have to admit I don't know catholicism well at all. I would be surprised if the Pope doesn't talk about grace. I know Mother Theresa had essentially this view, but that's about it.

> You don't tell god what needs to happen.

>>>That's not what I said. One simply cannot have been said to have made a choice under God's (or anyone's) rules without having first made an informed consent to those rules. No clear rules = no choice.

It is pretty clear. You either accept him as your savior, or you don't. What bothers people is that it isn't directly under our control. People want to be in control of everything, but if you have faith, you turn control over to god.

>>>You seem to be saying that there's only one absolute rule that speaks vaguely about accepting God's "grace." And you imply that all Christians should know this rule and hold it as the one and only absolute rule, thus having a "choice" about whether to follow it or go to hell.

Pretty much.

>>>That doesn't make any sense. Even if one could construct a clear rule from your quote, in order for that rule to offer humans a "choice," infants would need to have the comprehension of a competent adult.

Pragmatically, there's no hard and fast rule that could ever direct every movement a human makes. And if you had enough rules to cover everything, no one could remember them all. So it has to be a bit fuzzy. As far as the infant thing, I can see why a person of faith would want to know where their dead child was going. But in the end, we're not sending the child there, so I don't know why we can't just let god do what he wants, and leave it at that. Personally, I would be satisfied just to believe god wouldn't send a baby to hell. As far as the logical inconsistency, I'm sure god can figure it out.

>>Under your scheme, a newborn infant who worshiped his parents would go to hell and that would be utterly appropriate because he had fair warning that he had to worship God in his grace first and foremost.

I can see what your saying. I guess a newborn can't worship or have fair warning, which is the same as your point as far as informed consent. But at the same time, there's nothing the infant can do, nothing we can help the infant do (I guess baptism is sometimes thought of as a way to take care of the problem), so it isn't really necessary to spell it out. I'm comfortable saying I don't know.

>>That simply defies all logic and observed facts. We are not made with a clear set of rules imprinted on our brains from God.

I guess so, but we aren't talking science here. kj.

[MacMagus]

> I'm not sure how you are referring to "original sin". It does mean a lot of different things to
> different people. The protestant (as well as some others) view is that Jesus's death atoned
> for this. That's where the grace thing comes from. We are sinful by nature, will sin, and
> nothing we can do would earn us a place in heaven. Only through god's grace...

The discussion started out about Catholics. Are you saying that when Catholics follow their "rules" they don't get into heaven because it's the wrong set of rules?

Many rules in Catholicism deal with "original sin." Fundamentally, original sin means that people are created as sinners before they are even aware. One can't make a "choice" to be a sinner if sin is imposed upon you before your neurons are differentiated.

In this hierarchy of rules there is no "choice" to be made.

You're saying that the Catholics are wrong? When did God tell you that, exactly?


> I guess the way it works is that we know god wants us to devote a day to him (the
> sabbath). Doing so gets us no closer to being in heaven, but ignoring what god wants
> brings you closer to denying he is your god.

What if the book is wrong and it's okay to ignore the sabbath? Under your rule, is it okay to have killed someone for failing to honor the sabbath if you still believe in God's grace? You'll still go to heaven, right? Because for you the big rule is just that you have to believe in God's grace and all the stuff in the various bibles are just suggestions. Is that right?


> It tells us more than how to get to heaven. How to live the life God wants, how to
> strengthen our faith, how to help others with their faith, etc. etc. Being saved isn't
> necessarily dependent on it all, but if your saved, you want to do good.

But throwing away all of those rules is still okay under your theory -- murdering someone, coveting your neighbor's wife, failing to knock out your wife's teeth when she talks back to you. That's all okay so long as you believe in God's grace, right? That's your rule?


> > Which book says that? Where's God's signature on the affidavit? And why hasn't the
> > Pope said anything about this?
>
> I gave you one quote, and there are lots of others to this effect.

Okay, I see the source of the confusion.

I asked for the rules as laid out by God. The rules that give us a "choice" between heaven and hell. You gave me a quote about God's grace and said that the choice is about having faith.

Okay, but which faith?

There are a lot of bibles out there and a lot of conflicting verses.

If you insist that there are clear rules, an offer of proof is what traditionally follows that. Thus, I construed your quote as your offer of proof. That the "rule" and the faith were about God's grace.

Are you now saying that what you proffered was not an attempt to present a "rule" of which obeying gets one into heaven?

If that's not the exclusive rule then WHAT EXACTLY is the set of rules that we must follow? The real, 100% authoritative rules. Not some arbitrary selection from one small subset of one particular religion, but the actual rules as laid out by God.

Without them, the game is rigged. Faith may or MAY NOT be a requirement to get into heaven. Maybe just being good to your fellow man is sufficient. Maybe God wants you to take up war and conquer your neighbors. It's a crap shoot.


> in the end, we're not sending the child there, so I don't know why we can't just let god
> do what he wants, and leave it at that.

Some people love their children and would feel better if their children were sent to heaven when they died instead of being tortured for eternity in hell for a trespass that was beyond anyone's capacity to control.

We don't KNOW if that's God's will or not.

But if we accept the rules of the religions that require that people have to make certain conscious choices before they can get into heaven then those infants will be excluded from heaven.

Surely, as a matter of human decency those babies deserve at least a moment of thought on their behalf. Or does God not want us to have sympathy?


> As far as the logical inconsistency, I'm sure god can figure it out.

Of course GOD KNOWS THE RULES because God made the game up. And if God is omniscient, knowing things kind of goes with the territory.

But WE need to "figure it out" if we sincerely want to go to heaven.

Wouldn't you be just a little bit pissed off if say... Charles Manson got to heaven and you were sent to hell because of a tiny misalignment in beliefs? Because you followed the wrong bible. Because your faith, though strong, was not exactly the sort of faith that God was looking for?


> I'm comfortable saying I don't know.

Then you're not the right person to be advocating a particular rule or set of rules to get into heaven. When you have a rule or set of rules that show how to get into heaven then please come back and tell us.


> > That simply defies all logic and observed facts. We are not made with a clear set of
> > rules imprinted on our brains from God.
>
> I guess so, but we aren't talking science here.

No, not science. Reason. Intelligence. The capacity to ask questions, seek answers and to learn from one's experiences.

Resigning from thinking deeply about faith seems to me to create a very poor foundation for that faith. Would God really want such shallow adherents?

If you believe that God made mankind and endowed man with gifts to distinguish us from the common animals then man's intelligence is a gift from God. Isn't it disrespectful not to use such a gift?

[yoregano]

The ignorance of and hostility toward Christianity (not Catholicism, or any particular denomination for that matter, there is a difference), real Christianity is…

about the same as it's been now for the last two thousand years. Nothing new to see here. Move along please.

[spearmint]

This is sickening. Nobody cares for the souls of the innocent? I avoided this thread but had to check that there is such scum. Hard to believe. Good work folks. So you feel entertained or better on account of your spouting?

[RgrF]

I thought it was the sin-splattered souls that needed tending; an innocent soul, by virtue of its innocence, would be just fine on it's own, wouldn't it?

This all so confusing.

[Lux Interior]

[quote yoregano]real Christianity is…

about the same as it's been now for the last two thousand years.

Really? Then real Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with organized religion (and I agree). Organized religion has evolved greatly over the last 2000 years.

Organized religion has supported/condoned:

1) Wife beating
2) Slavery
3) Burning people at the stake
4) Torture or heretics/non-believers
5) Protection of pedophiles
...etc.

[yoregano]

"Then real Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with organized religion."

Yes! You are correct sir! Religion, being something created by man, is imperfect, and therefore plagued by evil and weakness as can anything else created by man. A true spiritual faith in Christ, on the other hand, is something perfectly intended by God.

Man has does many terrible things in the name of "religion." Don't condemn the whole lot because because some do wrong.

[MacMagus]

> A true spiritual faith in Christ, on the other hand, is something perfectly intended by God.

What God intends, huh?

You know God's mind? He confides his intentions to you? Did he tell you who is going to win the 2008 presidential election?

[yoregano]

"What God intends, huh?

You know God's mind?"

No, of course not. God is perfect, not me. I'm just supposed to try. As the late Keith Green said:

Just keep doing your best,
And pray that it’s blessed,
And jesus takes care of the rest.