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[quote billb]I'm surrounded by liberal democrats (and liberal republicans ).
A great many of these woman who like Hillary but won't vote for her is because they don't want to see Bill any more. He's baggage. I hear it over and over and over again. "If she divorced the scumbag she'd have my vote". Not my words. Maybe it's because I'm a guy, but the whole "scandal" thing and the fact they got through it (for whatever the reasons were/are), kinda minimilizes the whole thing. For me anyway. Water under the bridge.
Take away Bill in her life history and nobody would know who she is.
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I can't stand her, Minty.
But I've tried to only judge her political career as a NY Senator. ( not necessarily where the can't stand her part comes from totally)
Whether she would have gotten where she is today otherwise is a guess. I think she quite possibly would be. She does have ambition. She's not Bill's puppet.
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> There may be some citizens of Japanese ancestry who would take issue with that...
You got me there.
> That's an interesting list MacMagus, but nothing on it strikes me as dictatorial.
He micromanaged to the point where he personally oversaw street vendor licenses and ran the city like his own little kingdom, granting (probably illegal) favors to the wealthy elite and hiring his friends (and campaign donators) for positions regardless of their qualifications (or criminal records.)
Plus, it's a play on words. He's a dick.
But don't get me wrong on this point: New Yorkers knew exactly what they were voting for when they put him into office. We LIKE electing total pricks to local office and decent people to federal offices (with the notable exception of Al D'Amato).
NY unions (and the mob) are so strong that sometimes it takes a piece of sh!t to deal with them. We expect a few indiscretions. 'Problem with Giuliani was that his indiscretions were VERY public and often involved criminal acts that he only barely escaped from prosecution on (over and over again).
And then he was a total coward on 9/11 and endangered the lives of the folks at his response "command" center by fleeing the scene, but not calling for an evacuation of the staff. It took managers roughly 45 minutes to get permission to evacuate the building after Giuliani left.
I'll give him credit for this much, and it was an important thing: He got on tv and made regular status reports throughout the day on 9/11. It kept people calm. It was invaluable.
But that one good idea doesn't make him a good leader, let alone a suitable leader for our country -- and especially not in these troubled times. We don't need a president whose sole focus will be exchanging favors, partying with Donald Trump and getting all of his friends on the public payroll.
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[quote billb]I can't stand her, Minty.
But I've tried to only judge her political career as a NY Senator. ( not necessarily where the can't stand her part comes from totally)
Whether she would have gotten where she is today otherwise is a guess. I think she quite possibly would be. She does have ambition. She's not Bill's puppet.
Actually, that is something I left out of my criticism. It is quite obvious she put up with Bill's fooling around due to political aspirations and the potential for power they could have together. That couldn't be any more plain to see,.
The fact that she was willing to compromise any integrity she had for her place in politics says quite a bit. It's not s stretch to see how that trait would translate to politics with all of the "I'll ignore this if you do this for me" type nonsense that happens so frequently.
C'mon, can anyone here really say they would have just ignored what transpired and turned the page? Does anyone here actually lack that much self respect? Bill couldn't have done many more things to embarrass and humiliate her (and himself) any more than that. To me, it all goes back to that integrity thing and shows a real compromise on her behalf. I don't want that level of indignity in a President.
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[quote Dennis S]
I would hope he would change the Constitution to back the way it was.
That's a start.
wow.. u want to get rid of all those great amendments (not incl.Bill of Rights)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution#Amendments
[quote mattkime]>>I would not vote for someone, in the hope of change, just because they are black, or white, or yellow.
I'm not voting for him only for that reason.
>>Isn't he half white anyway? It is convenient that he is black, muslim, whatever, when it suits him.
Does it matter? He doesn't look like anyone on our money.
yes all the people on our money are green.. if he was green you would vote for him?
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Culinary Workers Union in NY has just endorsed Obama. For what reason? I swear all I have seen that he brings to the table is good looks and speeches. I do not for the most part believe anything a candidate says unless it hurts them with some people and that is not often. Stuff like building the Mexico fence and gay marriage which is polarizing.
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> Culinary Workers Union in NY has just endorsed Obama. For what reason? I swear all I
> have seen that he brings to the table is good looks and speeches.
Teachers in New Hampshire endorsed Huckabee... who doesn't believe in science or evolution, thinks that the earth is 6,000 years old and supports "All Children Left Behind."
I can't make sense of these things.
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Obama in his NH concession speech has just invoked the "New Frontier" and the "Promised Land." I feel nauseous.
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I can't remember who I am stealing this from, but somebody once said that Giuliani could have gone either way: prosecutor or mobster, lawyer or wise guy -- his methods wouldn't have been much different, he just would have been on the other side of the law.
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decocritter, it's refreshing to see someone approach the prospect of electing a new president with such complete openness and lack of prejudgementality.
Rgr and 'mint, I agree that Hillary dripped entitlement after Iowa, and it is an ugly quality.
That said, Peter, she didn't hesitate to pop a few jabs at Obama in her hour of weakness (the old "not ready" thing). I won't let you declare Obama the big bad bully and poor Hillary the defenseless victim. If it makes you feel better, I think she hurts herself more every time she pokes at him than she hurts him.
Everyone else:
I see folks have their marching orders from Rush and crew:
-keep repeating that Hillary is only riding Bill's coattails
-keep repeating that anyone who supports her is only doing so because of her gender
At what point do we reduce this to one sub-phrase repeated ad nauseum, a-la "flip-flopper"?
Good little soldiers . . .
