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cbelt3 wrote:
swampy-
Let's take this to a local and personal level. In an allegorical neighborhood, you can either have a controlling tribalism or a more open collaborative environment.
Which neighborhood functions better ? The one where those who 'do not belong' are driven out or forced to become a member of the tribe ? Or the one where everyone is neighborly and cooperative regardless of tribal elements ?
In my personal experience, the cooperative environment is better. I've lived in a tribal neighborhood. Those people were jerks. I hated it. My wife hated it. My children hated it. Even though we *were* members of their 'tribe', we chafed under the imposed limits and petty dictatorships of the tribal 'councils' (HOA, PTA, etc..)
"Freedom" in society is not the freedom to be a complete ass to others in the society. It's the freedom to interact with everyone in the manner of your choosing, as long as it's polite and respectful.
Freedom to be an ass is anarchy. Society breaks down. Politeness and mutual respect are the glues that hold societies together at a meta level.
As I was reading that, it reminded me of an interview I saw on television. The reporter went to a rural town in the South (don't remember exactly where) that was mostly populated with white evangelical Christians. The town had elected a young openly gay man as their mayor and the reporter was curious about how that came about so he interviewed many people in the town. One particular interview especially stayed with me. The interviewee was a middle aged farmer who seemed to be a fairly simple and straightforward thinker. When asked why he voted for the gay guy to be mayor he replied that the mayor was doing a very good job. The town was definitely better off for him being mayor. When specifically asked about the mayor being gay, the farmer paused a little as though he were reliving an internal struggle he had once had with himself and then said (paraphrasing) with a little sheepishness in his voice, "He didn't choose to be gay, that's just the way he is." You could tell that it hadn't come easy for him to go against the the meme of his evangelical tribe that being gay is a lifestyle choice. But he knew the mayor personally to be a good guy and could see for himself that that being gay is just the way the mayor is in spite of what his evangelical tribe was trying to tell him (although it probably helped that many of the immediate tribe in his town were shifting their attitudes).
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The struggle between the individual and collective is, in essence, eternal. It should be noted that collectivism is necessary for our survival, while individualism is unavoidable. The tension between the two is responsible for great achievement and ruin. Tribalism, as expressed in this thread, is a projection of that circumstance. The attempt to balance the individual tribal interests against the collective whole is also necessary for our survival. Nicely put, Ted.
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I'd like to reinforce that in the OP I was talking about the open public sphere of interactions. I was focused on markets that are open to the public (because that is where the recent push in extending religious freedom has been), but I think the basic rationale applies to the other big actor in the public sphere - government. We pay taxes to maintain the government part of the public sphere. Some of the tax money we pay to the government goes for the government to do things we don't want it to do - including things we think are morally wrong. I morally objected to the Vietnam war and I knew that some of the taxes I paid were going to pay for that war and I could have chosen to withhold paying taxes because of that. I actually thought about doing it. But then I realized that if we each only paid for all of government on an a la carte basis, the whole thing would collapse pretty quickly. I didn't want to pay for a war that I strongly morally opposed, but the value of maintaining the government was too valuable to give up so I paid. I paid the price it takes to make one out of many.
Fortunately, we still have the wonderful thing that is a mostly functioning though semi-corrupt representative democracy. So when the government does things we don't want it to do and that we don't want to pay taxes for, we can use the election process to change what the government does. When it's working anywhere near the way it should, then what the government does is a rough reflection of what more people than not want it to do. When it's working right, it's about persuasion and compromise. In many specific ways it fails to function that way, but I think relative to the way of lot of governments function in the world, this one ain't too bad. Now if I could only persuade more people to think about issues the way I do. 
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God wrote:
“If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction,[a] all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...13%3A12-15&version=ESV
The Lord told us how to fight the War on Terror. The current Muslim in the White House has led America astray of the Lord.
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Finley Payne wrote:
[quote=God]
“If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction,[a] all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...13%3A12-15&version=ESV
The Lord told us how to fight the War on Terror. The current Muslim in the White House has led America astray of the Lord.
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swampy wrote:
The whole idea of "making one out of many" rubs me the wrong way. If we are asked to give up our unique foibles (religion, ethnic traditions, ability to produce etc.) we no longer come out as a pot of stew with identifiable ingredients of peas, carrots, potatoes and meat. You are asking the chefs to puree the parts and dish out mush.
You say "mush," I say we are still a "stew."
Nobody is has to sacrifice their culture here and nobody has to assimilate in this country. They do have to compromise and learn to co-exist.
Cultural pluralism: is a term used when smaller groups within a larger society maintain their unique cultural identities, and their values and practices are accepted by the wider culture provided they are consistent with the laws and values of the wider society. Cultural pluralism is often confused with Multiculturalism. Multiculturalism lacks the requirement of a dominant culture.
One example is the United States which has a relatively strong dominant culture which includes strong elements of nationalism, a sporting culture and an artistic culture. In a pluralist culture, unique groups not only co-exist side by side, but also consider qualities of other groups as traits worth having in the dominant culture. A successful pluralistic society will place strong expectations of integration on its members rather than expectations of assimilation.
I form an opinion by considering a given issue from different viewpoints, by making present to my mind the standpoints of those who are absent; that is, I represent them.… The more people's standpoints I have present in my mind while I am pondering a given issue, and the better I can imagine how I would feel and think if I were in their place, the stronger will be my capacity for representative thinking and the more valid my final conclusions, my opinion.
- Hannah Arendt
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Finley Payne wrote:
[quote=God]
“If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction,[a] all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...13%3A12-15&version=ESV
The Lord told us how to fight the War on Terror. The current Muslim in the White House has led America astray of the Lord.
parallel universe? what Muslim are you speaking of?
if you mean President Obama, then IF he were a Muslim (which he's not), it would mean he's more conservative than Christians or Republicans.
so, you're saying Obama is Conservative?
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He's a gay-supporting, pork-eating, alcohol-drinking, Jesus-loving Muslim.
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decay wrote:
what Muslim are you speaking of?
if you mean President Obama, then IF he were a Muslim (which he's not)
Hilarious....
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