Jerry Falwell - R.I.P.

[raz]

Well... at most one of the two of us (Falwell and I) are right about the nature of the Universe. I suspect that he's finding out whether it was him right about now.

[trisho.]

[quote $tevie][quote Kiva]For those of you who wish to react to Falwell's anger and hatred w/ more hatred, I have this, by Frederick Buechner:

"Of the Seven Deadly Sins, anger is possibly the most fun. To lick your wounds, to smack your lips over grievances long past, to roll over your tongue the prospect of bitter confrontations still to come, to savor to the last toothsome morsel both the pain you are given and the pain you are giving back -- in many ways it is a feast fit for a king. The chief drawback is that what you are wolfing down is yourself. The skeleton at the feast is you."

Falwell was a man so full of fear. If you hate him right back, you're just as bad as he was.

kiva
I agree with you up to a point. But I don't think a moment or two of disrespect is nearly the equivalent of an entire lifetime spreading hate and fear. I doubt if anyone on this thread actively hates Falwell to the point of savoring to the last toothsome morsel. Well, except perhaps for chas_m.
Definitely agreed with $tevie. I didn't say I hated Falwell. I was saying I'm just glad he's finally dead. And Strom Thurman. Anger and Glee are two different sentiments.

[Kiva]

[quote trisho.][quote $tevie][quote Kiva]For those of you who wish to react to Falwell's anger and hatred w/ more hatred, I have this, by Frederick Buechner:

"Of the Seven Deadly Sins, anger is possibly the most fun. To lick your wounds, to smack your lips over grievances long past, to roll over your tongue the prospect of bitter confrontations still to come, to savor to the last toothsome morsel both the pain you are given and the pain you are giving back -- in many ways it is a feast fit for a king. The chief drawback is that what you are wolfing down is yourself. The skeleton at the feast is you."

Falwell was a man so full of fear. If you hate him right back, you're just as bad as he was.

kiva
I agree with you up to a point. But I don't think a moment or two of disrespect is nearly the equivalent of an entire lifetime spreading hate and fear. I doubt if anyone on this thread actively hates Falwell to the point of savoring to the last toothsome morsel. Well, except perhaps for chas_m.
Definitely agreed with $tevie. I didn't say I hated Falwell. I was saying I'm just glad he's finally dead. And Strom Thurman. Anger and Glee are two different sentiments.
I think you may be missing the point of the quote. To dance on somebody's grave does nobody any good but feed a part of you that doesn't need feeding. this is not to say that anger is something that isn't useful, at times...think of it as the 'fuel' that gets things going. But, when it starts influencing beyond that, it becomes a problem and, IMO, doesn't help anybody.

I feel empathy for a man who appeared to live such a miserable existence and even more empathy for all the people who submitted to his influence. We need to continue to speak out against such injustice and bigotry; I hear what you're saying about the "moment or two" not being equivalent to the anger Buechner refers to..that makes sense. but pissing on somebody's grave (chas_m ;-) or being happy they're dead - that's a bit different. I just don't see how that helps anybody.

Don't get me wrong....it takes a *lot* of effort for me not to say "rot in hell, you bastard"....but I just don't see how that helps. it just further propagates the very thing that made us so disgusted by the man in the first place.

good discussion...

kiva

[BCam]

And now he finally meets his Maker.

"Jerry - you got some 'splainin' to do!"

[chas_m]

The quote from Buechner is a good one, and would perhaps apply if there were such a thing as sin (there isn't) and if I was consumed with hatred and anger (I'm not).

Falwell's death is a welcome piece of good news in the unrelenting bleakness of NeoCon Hell all thinking people have been living through for the past six years, and we can only hope that Dick Cheney is not far behind.

PS. Those of us who lived through the 80s and lost friends to AIDS more or less directly because of Falwell's influence on the Reagan administration have a SPECIAL hatred for the man that younger people, I think, do not fully appreciate.

[Kiva]

[quote chas_m]The quote from Buechner is a good one, and would perhaps apply if there were such a thing as sin (there isn't) and if I was consumed with hatred and anger (I'm not).

Falwell's death is a welcome piece of good news in the unrelenting bleakness of NeoCon Hell all thinking people have been living through for the past six years, and we can only hope that Dick Cheney is not far behind.

PS. Those of us who lived through the 80s and lost friends to AIDS more or less directly because of Falwell's influence on the Reagan administration have a SPECIAL hatred for the man that younger people, I think, do not fully appreciate.
Again, how does being angry and glad that he is dead *help* you or him or anybody else? I'm not saying he wasn't an evil SOB...but how does what you're doing *help*?

also, to fully understand Buechner's quote, one has to look at what "sin" even is. Sin as the typical religious person puts it is B.S. - I agree. However do we, as humans, sometimes to frequently do things that hurt ourselves and/or others and do not help promote the connection we all have together? Absolutely. Personally, the use of the word "sin" is so poisoned by church-folks that it should just be dropped in favor of a discussion of things that are loving vs. unloving. Do one's actions bring you closer to others and, if you lean that way, further develop your spirituality or do they not? No need to feel hugely guilty if they don't...just treat it like a wandering thought in meditation and bring it back in line. However, you do have to acknowledge that they are a problem.

The whole sin-guilt-forgiveness thing was the church's way of interpreting this, IMO. It just got waaaaaaayyy out of control and the result isn't pretty.

make sense?

For a Unitarian's discussion about sin, I really liked this: http://www.firstunitarianportland.org/se...chterm=sin

kiva

[stephen]

I was deeply hurt by his actions, and our nation has been deeply damaged by his politics.

However, I would not wish him dead, or tortured, or in pain.

Love the sinner, hate the sin, as they say.

I think he was wrong, and what he's done to me, my friends, our communities, and our nation is tough to forgive. But God can forgive even him.


Stephen

[trisho.]

[quote Kiva][quote trisho.][quote $tevie][quote Kiva]For those of you who wish to react to Falwell's anger and hatred w/ more hatred, I have this, by Frederick Buechner:

"Of the Seven Deadly Sins, anger is possibly the most fun. To lick your wounds, to smack your lips over grievances long past, to roll over your tongue the prospect of bitter confrontations still to come, to savor to the last toothsome morsel both the pain you are given and the pain you are giving back -- in many ways it is a feast fit for a king. The chief drawback is that what you are wolfing down is yourself. The skeleton at the feast is you."

Falwell was a man so full of fear. If you hate him right back, you're just as bad as he was.

kiva
I agree with you up to a point. But I don't think a moment or two of disrespect is nearly the equivalent of an entire lifetime spreading hate and fear. I doubt if anyone on this thread actively hates Falwell to the point of savoring to the last toothsome morsel. Well, except perhaps for chas_m.
Definitely agreed with $tevie. I didn't say I hated Falwell. I was saying I'm just glad he's finally dead. And Strom Thurman. Anger and Glee are two different sentiments.
I think you may be missing the point of the quote. To dance on somebody's grave does nobody any good but feed a part of you that doesn't need feeding. this is not to say that anger is something that isn't useful, at times...think of it as the 'fuel' that gets things going. But, when it starts influencing beyond that, it becomes a problem and, IMO, doesn't help anybody.

I feel empathy for a man who appeared to live such a miserable existence and even more empathy for all the people who submitted to his influence. We need to continue to speak out against such injustice and bigotry; I hear what you're saying about the "moment or two" not being equivalent to the anger Buechner refers to..that makes sense. but pissing on somebody's grave (chas_m ;-) or being happy they're dead - that's a bit different. I just don't see how that helps anybody.

Don't get me wrong....it takes a *lot* of effort for me not to say "rot in hell, you bastard"....but I just don't see how that helps. it just further propagates the very thing that made us so disgusted by the man in the first place.

good discussion...

kiva
Again, lots of people here aren't necessarily angry to point of wishing his death or what have you. I'm just glad he's dead and could also empathize with him just like you do. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Albeit, I'm mostly glad he's gone now and not spreading bull shit and lies in full force.

And how does it help anybody to be glad he's dead? It gives you a sense of hope and renewal that another supreme douche bag leader that a LOT of people listened to is now gone. What's left is to hopefully combat the remaining crowd that is now sans leader and is possibly fractured and questioning the movement.

[WillyB]

Death is a great equalizer. No matter how we feel toward toward the Rev Jerry, we end up dead too.

[Panopticon]

Say Hi! to Sadam and the gang...

I didn't hate him, but I sure won't miss him either.