A FAH-bu-lous musical number

[kj]

>>>And I have never heard anyone but Bill Moyers voice any disapprobation, as a Christian, of this kind of hate-filled evangelism.

You haven't looked very hard. A simple google search yields endless examples.

>>>Which leaves only public censure and ridicule.

There are many, many alternatives. kj.

[RgrF]

So how would you deal with these people if they show up in your town dishonoring the funeral procession or burial of a dead soldier?

What would kj do?

[kj]

>>What would kj do?

Clearly, I would mock them until they stop. kj.

[x-uri]

[quote kj]There are many, many alternatives. kj.
Care to list a few?

[kj]

People like that are looking for fights. When you mock them, they are encouraged. That said, to be charitable, lets just say mocking them doesn't help nor hurt. In that case, almost anything would work as well. My approach would be to promote what is good, teach and train my kids to do good, and confronted with wrongness such as in your link, respectfully object. Phelps tried to put a statue in one of our public parks. The community said "no", and constructed an Ann Frank memorial instead. There was no negativity on our part, and I'm glad. As far as the list, it would be for how to promote what is good, which is limited only by a person's creativity. kj.

[x-uri]

[quote kj] Phelps tried to put a statue in one of our public parks. The community said "no", and constructed an Ann Frank memorial instead. There was no negativity on our part, and I'm glad. As far as the list, it would be for how to promote what is good, which is limited only by a person's creativity. kj.
A charming story. Boise reacts to Fred Phelps' request to memorialize Matthew Shepard's passage to hell at the hands of gay-bashers, by building a memorial to Anne Frank.

I am not sure of the logic here. "We will have no truck with backwards queer-bashers. See, we will build a memorial to a jewish girl who was killed by Nazis!"

I am even less sure of the chronology, though.

Do you have a citation?

As nearly as I can tell, the Anne Frank Human Rights Memorial was dedicated in 2002.

Phelps' campaign to place the Matthew Shepherd monuments in 10 cities where overtly religious monuments already stood on public land was -- I believe -- launched in 2004. At least, the earliest news reports I could find about it all date to early 2004.

The only connection between Phelps and the Anne Frank Memorial that I could turn up is rather tortuous.

It appears that, rather than go to court over the issue, the city decided to move the 10 Commandments Monument -- which Phelps cited as his entrée into Julia Davis park -- to an Episcopal church.

Then, following the 2005 Supreme court decision that let a similar monument stand at the Texas Capitol, on the somewhat dubious argument that its religious meaning was diluted by being one monument among many, a group called the "Keep the Commandments Coalition" tried to have the monument moved back to the park.

They argued that the proximity of the the original site to the Anne Frank memorial and the Idaho Black History museum would activate the "one among many" exception to the disestablishment clause of the first amendment.

If you have evidence of a more direct link, please correct me.

Notwithstanding, it is an interesting question whether the city council found greater motivation to reject Phelps request in the desire to teach tolerance, or in the fear of ridicule -- and the likely political and economic consequences -- had they been compelled to consider the Reverend Phelps' application.

Edit: I found a reference to the Boise Parks and Recreation Commission rejecting Phelps' proposal in December of 2003.

Edit 2: Phelps was citing a 10th Circuit Court ruling from August 2002 in his request to have his "gay man enters Hell" monument sited on public land on which 10 Commandments monuments already stood.

[kj]

>>>I am not sure of the logic here. "We will have no truck with backwards queer-bashers. See, we will build a memorial to a jewish girl who was killed by Nazis!"

I'm actually not sure of the chronology, but I can assure you the two (actually 3, as you noted) events are related, although not quite the way you are saying. I'm not sure when Phelps began talking about his plan. The common thread is human rights. The important part is they chose to allow one, and not the other. Phelp's approach is negative. The Ann Franks memorial is positive, in that it promotes what is good.

>>Notwithstanding, it is an interesting question whether the city council found greater motivation

It was rejected because the community did not want it. Phelp's statue would not represent the beliefs of our community accurately. People were overwhelmingly disgusted.

Now, how about my actual point? Is mocking the right thing to do? Is it effective? Is my theoretical list acceptable? kj.

[Lux Interior]

Do we need a third, "kj v. x-uri" sub-forum?

[x-uri]

[quote kj]I'm actually not sure of the chronology, but I can assure you the two (actually 3, as you noted) events are related, although not quite the way you are saying. I'm not sure when Phelps began talking about his plan. The common thread is human rights. The important part is they chose to allow one, and not the other. Phelp's approach is negative. The Ann Franks memorial is positive, in that it promotes what is good.
The earliest mention I could find of a proposal to build an Anne Frank memorial was dated 1998. Fred Phelps plans to put a monument with the inscription "Matthew Shepard, Entered Hell October 12, 1998, in Defiance of God's Warning: 'Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination.' Leviticus 18:22." next to the Ten Commandments monument was predicated upon a 2002 Federal Court decision.

So, however the three monuments are linked, it is not in the way that you claimed. The Anne Frank memorial was not built "instead" of the Fred Phelps memorial.

Now, how about my actual point? Is mocking the right thing to do? Is it effective? Is my theoretical list acceptable? kj.

Well, your "theoretical list" of "many, many alternatives" contains exactly one anecdote, which did not actually happen. So no, I reject it.

Further, I submit that it is as likely that Boise City council was motivated -- at least in part -- to make Phelps, and his clan of hateful simpletons go away as quickly and quietly as possible because he is ridiculed and denounced by the kinds of people that they would like to invest in Boise.

[quote Lux Interior]Do we need a third, "kj v. x-uri" sub-forum?


Point. I think I am done. I may as well be talking to Spearmint for all the good it does to marshal facts and cite references.

I blame Bush. As the Bush administration's perfidy and incompetence becomes more and more obvious, we seem to have lost all the better "conservative" posters. It was kind of fun taking Robert's lunch money (for instance) because he would actually try to justify his position with facts and reasoned argument.

Lately, this side of the forum has been gangs of progressives beating up on a few poor wingnuts, who are clearly incapable of defending themselves.

Edit: Can't seem to type this morning.

Edit 2 -- just to see if I still can...

[kj]

You know full well mocking is ineffective and wrong, which is why you won't address it.

You need me to make a list of ways that people promote good? You can't think of any yourself? If that's what you're saying, you're a way bigger knob than Spearmint ever will be. Btw, where's your data on the effectiveness of mocking?

>>It was kind of fun taking Robert's lunch money (for instance)

Don't you find it odd that you "win every debate" based only on your own assessment? That must be quite a challenge. kj.