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+--- Thread: The defeat of Trump, the rise of fascism, and what we should really be focusing on (/showthread.php?tid=252320)
Re: The defeat of Trump, the rise of fascism, and what we should really be focusing on - davester - 01-29-2021
A primary reason for the rise of fascism is that voters are being swayed to vote for fascists by propaganda. Perhaps it's time to take a hard look at freedom of the press and free speech. It is illegal to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater. It should be just as illegal to incite violent overthrow of the government in the media by lying to the listeners. Right now, a huge part of the populace has been brainwashed by the right wing media into believing in a reality that is pure misinformation and to believe that media sources that actually deal in reality are false. Unless we find a way to wrest these people away from their misinformation opiate we are going to lose this democracy. Propaganda is how the Third Reich took control of the german populace. We need to find a way of stopping the control of the populace by fascist propaganda.
An example. I have an old high school friend who is now under the sway of right wing propaganda. She was/is a very sweet person, but when the topic turns to politics she vomits forth strings of completely false information to support her desire that the evil democratic congresspersons and the new president who are on a mission to destroy our country be killed to "stop the steal". She also expresses horror that anyone could listen to the evil corrupt mainstream press who are in on the plot. The point being...she is not a fundamentally evil person but deep within her heart she believes the nonsense she has been fed. There is no possibility of reaching such people so the only solution is to crush the propaganda machine.
Edit: Another thought. It's the propaganda multiplied by unregulated social media that is the problem. IMHO the dems need to focus on regulation of social media and the press to ensure that distribution of falsehoods has consequences. I'm not sure how to do that without retaining the essence of freedom of the press and speech, but it needs to be dealt with in some way.
Re: The defeat of Trump, the rise of fascism, and what we should really be focusing on - bfd - 01-29-2021
Unfortunately, all of the notions of curtailing media - of any kind - comes down to the notion of restricting the freedom of speech, assembly, etc. to only the kinds of speech and assembly that are deemed allowable. So then who decides what's allowable and what's not?
Seems clear as mud. And the most difficult part is that the founding fathers thought it appropriate to include arms in this freedom mix. Obviously our freedoms work both ways, and in many ways, but it seems like there's one side of this mess right now that owns a preponderance of the weapons.
And because they have "the right" to carry them, it's not a good thing, particularly when you have misinformation and outright brainwashing driving the those mobs.
Re: The defeat of Trump, the rise of fascism, and what we should really be focusing on - davester - 01-29-2021
bfd wrote:
Unfortunately, all of the notions of curtailing media - of any kind - comes down to the notion of restricting the freedom of speech, assembly, etc. to only the kinds of speech and assembly that are deemed allowable. So then who decides what's allowable and what's not?
Not necessarily. Freedom of speech or the press should not mean that you are not liable for the things you say or publish. That's the pickle we are in now. The social media companies are protected from liability by Section 230. If this was changed radically so that those companies (and the rest of the press for that matter) cold more easily be sued for causing damage as a result of distribution of demonstrably false information we might be able to start rolling back the propaganda disaster that we are currently in. Note that other countries do have some degree of regulation of speech without them turning into fascist states.
Also, don't forget that the US has a long history of controls on free speech that in some cases have been unfortunately dispensed with. For example, the Fairness Doctrine, censorship of what can be shown on TV, etc. Not all of these controls were good, but some were good for society.
I do agree with your point regarding "freedom of guns". That is a ridiculous part of the constitution IMHO.
Re: The defeat of Trump, the rise of fascism, and what we should really be focusing on - sekker - 01-29-2021
bfd wrote:
Unfortunately, all of the notions of curtailing media - of any kind - comes down to the notion of restricting the freedom of speech, assembly, etc. to only the kinds of speech and assembly that are deemed allowable. So then who decides what's allowable and what's not?
Seems clear as mud. And the most difficult part is that the founding fathers thought it appropriate to include arms in this freedom mix. Obviously our freedoms work both ways, and in many ways, but it seems like there's one side of this mess right now that owns a preponderance of the weapons.
And because they have "the right" to carry them, it's not a good thing, particularly when you have misinformation and outright brainwashing driving the those mobs.
Dominion is showing a clear area where $$ talks. No Bill of Rights protects one when what they say impacts the Bottom Line of others.
Re: The defeat of Trump, the rise of fascism, and what we should really be focusing on - davester - 01-29-2021
sekker wrote:
Dominion is showing a clear area where $$ talks. No Bill of Rights protects one when what they say impacts the Bottom Line of others.
But currently Section 230 protects those who publish this stuff.
Re: The defeat of Trump, the rise of fascism, and what we should really be focusing on - rjmacs - 01-29-2021
sekker wrote:
[quote=rjmacs]
I don't think it makes any sense to try to convert the QAnon and blindered supporters of the ex-president.
As for governing, the best way the Democrats can increase their support is to give the public what it needs, and pass laws (requires eliminating the legislative filibuster, or reduce the threshold to something manageable) that actually help people.
You can't win an argument over an ideological divide with logic or facts. You can change people's living conditions, provide needed support, and diminish some (not all) of the vitriol by giving the public what it needs, whether they agree with you or not.
The worst thing the Democrats can do right now is to escalate rhetoric and attack the 'deplorables' as bad people. Just make sure they can pay their bills, keep or acquire health insurance, and find work. Leave the rest alone.
No, there is a time to define right and wrong. We are living through one such time. Fascism is wrong, democracy is the base of our country.
The 'deplorables' that are a part of the MAGA movement who believe the Jan 6 attack was wrong? Those I can work with.
Those that want to defend the attack on the Capitol who planned to execute the VP and Speaker of the House?
No.
I will give them time to come to their senses, but - no.
So whatchoo gonna do about it?
I didn't say we should "work with" people who defend the attack on the Capitol. I said we should focus on improving the conditions for regular people while sidelining those nutters.
You want to waste more time on people who won't be convinced away from their conspiracies? Fine, but I hope that lawmakers know better, and can see that every counter-bicker helps them, and hurts all of us.
Re: The defeat of Trump, the rise of fascism, and what we should really be focusing on - mrbigstuff - 01-29-2021
Agree with getting stuff done, even if I'm not above a good street fight now and then.
Re: The defeat of Trump, the rise of fascism, and what we should really be focusing on - vision63 - 01-29-2021
Lots of good stuff that people talk about but as far at priorities go, this is what needs to be focused on.
1. Considering that we're one Senator away from GOP control, holding our ranks in 2022 is paramount. Raphael Warnock's seat in particular is in up for grabs in 22 months.
2. We have to defend the House. We can easily lose House control in 2022. The GOP is going to fight with a ferocity that we've never seen before. If we think we can be cute, we can lose. We need all the voters we can get, including those on the right that dislike their own party.
3. Only elections have saved this country. Not any stump speeches, policy initiatives, investigations or any kind of efforts we tried stopped them. Only turning out the vote and getting their votes counted did the job.
We have to do that job even better. The goal of the GOP is to figure out ways to divide the left and peel off voters.
Re: The defeat of Trump, the rise of fascism, and what we should really be focusing on - cbelt3 - 01-29-2021
Unfortunately, to Democrats "Bi-partisan" means cooperation. To Republicans it means "I win".
Until the Republican party cleanses itself, I recommend against it.
Re: The defeat of Trump, the rise of fascism, and what we should really be focusing on - Lemon Drop - 01-29-2021
vision63 wrote:
Lots of good stuff that people talk about but as far at priorities go, this is what needs to be focused on.
1. Considering that we're one Senator away from GOP control, holding our ranks in 2022 is paramount. Raphael Warnock's seat in particular is in up for grabs in 22 months.
2. We have to defend the House. We can easily lose House control in 2022. The GOP is going to fight with a ferocity that we've never seen before. If we think we can be cute, we can lose. We need all the voters we can get, including those on the right that dislike their own party.
3. Only elections have saved this country. Not any stump speeches, policy initiatives, investigations or any kind of efforts we tried stopped them. Only turning out the vote and getting their votes counted did the job.
We have to do that job even better. The goal of the GOP is to figure out ways to divide the left and peel off voters.
Yes.
And in the short time between now and 2022 elections, produce meaningful results for people. Things Dems can campaign on. Biden's economic plans can peel off Republicans.