Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Hey, Kiva. Can you use one of your fancy elite fallacy names on this?
#11
You look at any country in the world...the higher the energy consumption, the higher their standard of living.

J Marston's point about standard of living not being the same as quality of life is true, and to the extent that Santorum's extended quote in the OP may have implied so, that would be a fallacy. But, to be clear, the bolded sentence above is the only part Trouble quoted when he said, "True", so it's not evident that he was implying that the quality of life is related to higher energy consumption.

It seems that the usual meaning of "standard of living" is very much like the one in Wikipedia: "Standard of living refers to the level of wealth, comfort, material goods and necessities available to a certain socioeconomic class in a certain geographic area." So it would seem to be an empirical issue - do the levels of wealth, comfort,, material goods and necessities correlate with a higher standard of living? To say that is the case in every country may be a bit of an overgeneralization, but I think it is largely the empirically true that they do correlate.

But, as some here have pointed out, correlation does not imply causation. I do believe, though, that there is a cause and effect relationship between energy use and the level of wealth, comfort, material goods and necessities. (I can explain that farther if anyone would like me to.) So, I think that, other than a little bit of overgeneralizing, the bolded quote Trouble referenced and said is true, is true.

But, back to the whole extended quote in the OP - there are problems with what Santorum is saying. The implicit implication is that we must continue to burn fossil fuels to retain a "high" standard of living. I see no reason to assume that is true. There are alternative sources of energy that can be used to "power" a high standard of living. Because of that, the issue of maintenance of a high standard of living is different from the issue of whether or not using fossil fuels as a major source of energy to retain a high standard of living will cause man-made global warming that will adversely affect future generations.

There is no doubt that human activity that may improve the standard of living for some time can have devastating impact on the environment for future generations; for example, deforestation:

http://www.eoearth.org/article/Deforestation

Ancient and medieval times

In ancient Greece, regional analyses of historic erosion and alluviation demonstrate that massive erosion follows eforestation, by about 500-1,000 years the introduction of farming in the various regions of Greece, ranging from the later Neolithic to the Early Bronze Age.[6] The thousand years following the middle of the first millennium BC saw substantial instances soil erosion in numerous locales. The historic siltation of ports along certain coasts of Europe (Bruge) and the coasts of the Black Sea and southern coasts Asia Minor (e.g Tulcea, Clarus, and the ports of Ephesus, Priene and Miletus, where harbours were reduced in use or abandoned because of the silt deposited by the Danube and Meander Rivers) and in coastal Syria during the last centuries BC.

By the end of the Middle Ages in Europe, there were severe shortages of food, fuel and building materials since most of the primordial forests had been cleared.[7] Transition to a coal burning economy and cultivation of potatoes and maize allowed continuity of the already large European population to survive. Easter Island has suffered from an ecodisaster, aggravated by agriculture and deforestation. The disappearance of the island's palm trees slightly predates and suggests correlation with the significant decline of its civilization starting at least as early as the 1600s AD; the societal collapse of that period can be linked to deforestation and over-exploitation of other resources.
Reply
#12
Knowing, or being able to list logical fallacies, is the easy _part_. The hard part is applying them correctly. In this case, I think you have to figure out what he means first. I don't think he means that energy consumption causes standard of living. Would he say that setting up a tesla coil the size of kansas would improve our standard of living by virtue of consuming a lot of energy? Probably not, so I would say the fallacy has been misapplied. Fwiw, I think he is probably saying that given the way standard of living is currently defined in our culture (and many others), a high standard of living takes a lot of energy. I'm not sure there's any fallacy there. kj.

Dennis S wrote:
Here's a quote from Santorum.

One of the favorite tricks of the left is to use your sentimentality, is to use your proper understanding that we are stewards of this earth, and that we have a responsibility to hand off a beautiful Earth to the next generation. And so they use that, and they’ve used it in the past to try to scare you into supporting radical ideas on the environment. They tried it with this idea, this politicization of science called manmade global warming.

You look at any country in the world...the higher the energy consumption, the higher their standard of living.


http://www.alternet.org/environment/1541...st_one_day
Reply
#13
Whoops, I think I just repeated what Ted...said. kj.
Reply
#14
Ombligo wrote:
What is true today is not necessarily true tomorrow.

And this is the second part of what Ted just said, if I understand correctly. Way to be concise (I wish I could do that)! kj.
Reply
#15
kj wrote:
Whoops, I think I just repeated what Ted...said. kj.

What you said clarified which is the antecedent and which is the consequent in a way I had muddled.
Reply
#16
I think it's just a non sequitur. The standard of living and the overall health of the natural environment are not directly related. This is particularly true where you have pockets of wealth and pockets of poverty. The fact that poor people in this country often live in areas that have the highest concentration of industry and therefore the highest air pollution and water pollution is well recognized. People who like to talk about "environmental justice" concentrate on this point. Having a high per capita ownership of automobiles and high mileage driven also is directly equated with an economist's notion of standard of living, but inversely coorelated with a clean environment.

But dealing in non sequiturs is the least of the Santorum problems. He's just flat out wrong on man made climate change, aka global warming, and since he obviously has at least a modicum of intelligence, he is being a dishonest hypocrite (to say the least) in refusing to engage in a little bit of intellectual honesty on the topic.
Reply
#17
Ca Bob wrote:
I think it's just a non sequitur. The standard of living and the overall health of the natural environment are not directly related. This is particularly true where you have pockets of wealth and pockets of poverty. The fact that poor people in this country often live in areas that have the highest concentration of industry and therefore the highest air pollution and water pollution is well recognized. People who like to talk about "environmental justice" concentrate on this point. Having a high per capita ownership of automobiles and high mileage driven also is directly equated with an economist's notion of standard of living, but inversely coorelated with a clean environment.

But dealing in non sequiturs is the least of the Santorum problems. He's just flat out wrong on man made climate change, aka global warming, and since he obviously has at least a modicum of intelligence, he is being a dishonest hypocrite (to say the least) in refusing to engage in a little bit of intellectual honesty on the topic.

:agree: (except I'm not entirely sure about the "hypocrite" part)
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)