Does Pallin really think "Under God" was in the pledge of allegiance?

[mattkime]

>>I'm not going to be told I can't discuss a statement she made showing a poor grasp of american history

Exactly!

Anyone who thinks "under god" was put there by the founding fathers believes in a history that just isn't true. like it or not, at least understand how and why its there.

[Ted King]

I don't think this, by itself, is an important issue. But it is worth knowing in that it may contribute to a matrix of information from which we can make reasonable inferences about the way she may very well govern if thrust into the situation. For example, is she careful and thoughtful in her deliberations with a full appreciation for the depth and complexities of issues that face a president or does she tend to rely on quickly making assumptions based on simple formulations derived from fairly basic and parochial understandings?

Just to address a factual issue that arose. A good look for evidence of founding fathers using the term "under God" revealed that the only record of its use by a founding father was Washington who used it twice about a week apart when his troops faced British forces on Staten Island:

"The time is now near at hand which must probably determine whether Americans are to be freemen or slaves. . . . The fate of unborn millions will now depend, under God, on the courage and conduct of this army."

"...this important Event will serve as a fresh incentive to every officer and soldier to act with fidelity and courage, as knowing that now the peace and safety of the Country depends, under God, solely on the success of our arms."

As a factual matter, the record does not seem to support a claim that founding fathers - plural - used the phrase "under God". And that there appears to only be a record of it being used twice within a week by one founding father hardly justifies the implication that it was a common refrain. I would be interested in hearing karsen's reference for the claim that, "The words "under God" WERE used by our founding fathers though." Was this a claim spoken from knowledge garnered from reading and research or simply an assumption based on the idea that somehow it surely must have been commonly used?

[karsen]

James Madison, who is considered the father of the US Constitution, trained for ministry and has many writings on God if you care to look. Heck, read the Constitution for several references to God.

“We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!” - John Adams

Give me a break.

[Black Landlord]

[quote karsen]James Madison, who is considered the father of the US Constitution, trained for ministry and has many writings on God if you care to look. Heck, read the Constitution for several references to God.

“We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!” - John Adams

Give me a break.
That may be, but it has nothing at all to do with this particular line of discussion.

[Greg the dogsitter]

That decides it - put me in for Jesus.

[Black Landlord]

[quote karsen][quote Black Landlord]Considering we know next to nothing about the person who could be president a year from now, I'm not going to be told I can't discuss a statement she made showing a poor grasp of american history, and I won't be told that it's some sort of dirty pool or double standard to make judgements about this mystery person based on any credible info which surfaces.
I agree 100%

Obama also spoke about his uncle, who was part of the American brigade that helped to liberate Auschwitz. He said the family legend is that, upon returning from war, his uncle spent six months in an attic. “Now obviously, something had really affected him deeply, but at that time there just weren’t the kinds of facilities to help somebody work through that kind of pain,” Obama said. “That’s why this idea of making sure that every single veteran, when they are discharged, are screened for post-traumatic stress disorder and given the mental health services that they need – that’s why it’s so important.”

Let's discuss his poor grasp on American History.

EDIT: I bet more Americans know which country liberated Auschwitz than who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance.
The validity of criticism and scrutiny of Palin does not hinge on some abstract and far-fetched analogy to Obama.

[Wags]

James Madison:

An alliance or coalition between Government and religion cannot be too carefully guarded against......Every new and successful example therefore of a PERFECT SEPARATION between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance........religion and government will exist in greater purity, without (rather) than with the aid of government. [James Madison in a letter to Livingston, 1822, from Leonard W. Levy- The Establishment Clause, Religion and the First Amendment,pg 124]

What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not. [Pres. James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785]



John Adams:

As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.

The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

[Ted King]

[quote karsen]James Madison, who is considered the father of the US Constitution, trained for ministry and has many writings on God if you care to look. Heck, read the Constitution for several references to God.

“We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!” - John Adams

Give me a break.
That is, of course, a non sequitur. I didn't say the founding fathers didn't talk about God, I asked if you had knowledge that justified the SPECIFIC claim, "The words "under God" WERE used by our founding fathers though."

There is only one reference to "God" in the constitution and that was simply the customary way of saying the date in those days - it says just before the signatures, the term "in the year of our Lord" - and that doesn't imply that the notion of God plays some central role in the way they intended the government to be seen or function. In fact, given the widespread acceptance of Christianity at the time it is extremely noteworthy that the operational part of the text does not mention God. Madison did have a huge role to play in framing the Constitution, and he was widely known to favor a fairly strict separation of church and state, so it is, no doubt, no accident that there is no meaningful mention of God in the Constitution.

It would appear that once again, you stated something to be the case - that there are SEVERAL references to God in the Constitution - apparently because you assumed it must be the case rather than from actual knowledge.

Look, I'm not trying to vilify you, I'm just pointing out that you have made the mistake a couple of times here of stating as a fact something you seem to have simply assumed to be the case without knowing them to be true (because they are not). I make plenty of mistakes, too. :-)

[Wags]

[quote davester]I don't care what Palin's depth of knowledge (or lack thereof) is, but as long as the modified pledge with the words "under god" is still sanctioned by the government, the pledge will remain a farce since the words were added by mccarthyist witch-hunters for the sole purpose of alienating and expressing disapproval of atheists and other non-christians. The "under god" version of the pledge is a travesty, forever linked to mccarthist terror tactics.
And the beat goes on, proving that the apple does not fall far from the tree:

George Bush on atheism and patriotism:

The following exchange took place at the Chicago airport between Robert I. Sherman of American Atheist Press and George Bush, on August 27 1987. Sherman is a fully accredited reporter, and was present by invitation as a member of the press corps. The Republican presidential nominee was there to announce federal disaster relief for Illinois. The discussion turned to the presidential primary:

RS: "What will you do to win the votes of Americans who are atheists?"

GB: "I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me."

RS: "Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?"

GB: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

UPI reported on May

[karsen]

[quote Black Landlord][quote karsen]James Madison, who is considered the father of the US Constitution, trained for ministry and has many writings on God if you care to look. Heck, read the Constitution for several references to God.

“We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!” - John Adams

Give me a break.
That may be, but it has nothing at all to do with this particular line of discussion.
I was replying to a comment made directly to me. It was relevant as an answer to that. "God" has been used by our Founding Fathers.