Sorry.. your Zune DRM Content is officially dead

[M A V I C]

I worked at a company that was doing streaming and DRM long before Apple got into the game. The reason Apple used DRM was not because they wanted to, but because they couldn't get the content otherwise.

Which would you rather have - Music with DRM or stick with CDs?
Which would you rather have - An iPod you can put music on but can't rip it off of, or no iPod?

Yeah, Apple made users jump through hoops. You've probably seen my posts here not understanding why I can't connect an iPod to my laptop and add music, then connect it to my desktop and add music... let a lone my wife's machine. It's not a great user experience.

But without Apple at least conceding some hoops to the label owners, we wouldn't be where we are today. We would either still be stuck with physical media or we'd still be stuck with so much DRM. The labels had to see how it would play out with DRM before they would take a chance without it.

Switching to Linux is an edge case. There's no way Apple is going to battle for that.

[silvarios]

M A V I C wrote:
I worked at a company that was doing streaming and DRM long before Apple got into the game. The reason Apple used DRM was not because they wanted to, but because they couldn't get the content otherwise.

Which would you rather have - Music with DRM or stick with CDs?
Which would you rather have - An iPod you can put music on but can't rip it off of, or no iPod?

Yeah, Apple made users jump through hoops. You've probably seen my posts here not understanding why I can't connect an iPod to my laptop and add music, then connect it to my desktop and add music... let a lone my wife's machine. It's not a great user experience.

But without Apple at least conceding some hoops to the label owners, we wouldn't be where we are today. We would either still be stuck with physical media or we'd still be stuck with so much DRM. The labels had to see how it would play out with DRM before they would take a chance without it.

Switching to Linux is an edge case. There's no way Apple is going to battle for that.

What about switching to Android? That's no an edge case. That's 85% of the market.

Your description about adding music on one computer and then adding it on a different computer being complex if not impossible is exactly my point. Most, if not all of the music is DRM free, yet Apple is still preventing you from accessing it. That has nothing to do with the record labels and everything to do with Apple. DRM music (and other content) could have easily been obfuscated in the same manner it is now, but the other stuff should be untouched. The iTunes tie in is not DRM in the traditional sense, you can legally circumvent using iTunes. However, Apple knows most people won't bother and the iTunes tie in is a powerful one.

Again, the iPod predates the iTunes Music Store, yet the transfer limitation has always been there. Go figure. I have a bunch of other non Apple devices that don't have the same limitation. Weird, eh?

P.s. Even if a music publisher that didn't want DRM, Apple for years prevented you from opting out of FairPlay on your own content. Again, this is an Apple issue, why else would Apple make all publishers use DRM? I'd switch over to eMusic and the same music would be DRM free (from the small guys, all DRM free well before Apple).

[Lew Zealand]

silvarios, what do you use for listening to music on the go? I find Apple's overly structured way of doing things an occasional inconvenience but rarely an actual problem but your use cases seem to be different from mine. I'm wondering what you found that works better for you?

It seems to me that you probably just buy CDs or non-DRM music from other vendors; that's what I've always done. I not annoyed by DRM as I find it irrelevant— it's a business model that I don't participate in as there are superior alternatives: buy CDs and rip them.

The Apple annoyance for me is not being able to load songs from 2 different Macs to one iPod, which is something I assume is still a limitation, it certainly is for the iPhone and iPad. The transfer of music on and then off an iDevice was not something that was of much use to me as we have a centralized server for everything but for non-Apple-owned content that behavior should not have been restricted. Lazy programming or something else?

[silvarios]

Lew Zealand wrote:
silvarios, what do you use for listening to music on the go? I find Apple's overly structured way of doing things an occasional inconvenience but rarely an actual problem but your use cases seem to be different from mine. I'm wondering what you found that works better for you?

The scroll wheel was brilliant, but the iPod classic is overpriced (and I think gone now) and the rest of the models haven't sported a scroll wheel for years. As such, I just go ahead and use a phone, tablet, computer, and even the occasional DAP, like the Sansa Clip. They all work well enough given the specific scenario.

Lew Zealand wrote: It seems to me that you probably just buy CDs or non-DRM music from other vendors; that's what I've always done. I not annoyed by DRM as I find it irrelevant— it's a business model that I don't participate in as there are superior alternatives: buy CDs and rip them.

Yeah, general non DRM stuff, but I do have some stuff from iTunes. The DRM compatible "digital copies" have been no use to me for years now. Good thing Disney bundled that crap as an alternative to ripping. /s I just ripped the DVD/Blu-ray anyway.

Lew Zealand wrote: The Apple annoyance for me is not being able to load songs from 2 different Macs to one iPod, which is something I assume is still a limitation, it certainly is for the iPhone and iPad. The transfer of music on and then off an iDevice was not something that was of much use to me as we have a centralized server for everything but for non-Apple-owned content that behavior should not have been restricted. Lazy programming or something else?

Something else. They don't want people out of the ecosystem. See how easily Apple leveraged the iTunes connection when the iPhone was released? It was years before you could fully manage your iOS device without iTunes (iOS 5 perhaps?).

[Lux Interior]

silvarios wrote:
Of course if was. That's the mythology. It was awesome only being able to use Macs to use an mp3 player. By the way, it was $400, which was really awesome too!!!!!!!

It was worth it to me.

And I only had Macs.

Apple made the iPod to sell Macs.

If you're happy with Android, why do you even care? You seem to have an option that suits you. Apple stuff works for me.

[silvarios]

Lux Interior wrote:
[quote=silvarios]
Of course if was. That's the mythology. It was awesome only being able to use Macs to use an mp3 player. By the way, it was $400, which was really awesome too!!!!!!!

It was worth it to me.

And I only had Macs.

Apple made the iPod to sell Macs.

If you're happy with Android, why do you even care? You seem to have an option that suits you. Apple stuff works for me.
To sell Macs may have been the goal, but without iTunes on Windows, the iPod is a footnote.

Apple stuff works for you because every time there's a problem you hand wave it away on account you only buy products from one company. Frankly, Apple doesn't have to be competitive to get your business, it's already in the bag. The rest of us have to deal with bad decisions and then find a work around or migrate to other products.

I've helped many a person with the need to get their own content off an iPod. The fact Apple wants to cripple their products to ensure vendor lock-in has always been embarrassing, but the defense of such anti consumer behavior will continue to be mind boggling to me. Apple makes great stuff, doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. I expect employees of Apple and stockholders to be so vociferous in the defense, but we peon consumers have to look out for each other.

Edit: Again, I mention multiple points where something is broken by design and you focus on a tiny sliver of the point. The larger point is DRM is bad, vendor lock-in is bad, and vertical integration is no panacea to these problems as the latter point is generally exacerbated by such problems.

[M A V I C]

silvarios wrote: What about switching to Android? That's no an edge case. That's 85% of the market.

Oy. The "market"... you must be referring to sales of new smartphones for that number. There's a ton of reasons that's not accurate to use here, and I can list those out if you like. I have an Android phone, and I wish it was easy for me to get my iTunes music over there. And if you think Apple should have already fixed that issue, this is where you're not understanding me.

Almost all of my comments were based around the roots of why Apple is where it is. There's a complex story behind it all. Not supporting Android is more so a gap in their follow through than a strategic plan.

Your description about adding music on one computer and then adding it on a different computer being complex if not impossible is exactly my point.

Yes, I was attempting to provide a personal example of how I agree with the struggles you mention. I'm not trying to say they don't exist, but to make clear the alternative.

Most, if not all of the music is DRM free, yet Apple is still preventing you from accessing it. That has nothing to do with the record labels and everything to do with Apple.

It has everything to do with the labels. Like I mentioned, I worked for a company who fought this battle before (and after) Apple even entered the game. And listening to the discussions as the iTMS rolled out, it's all because of what Apple had to do to get the content.

Again, the iPod predates the iTunes Music Store, yet the transfer limitation has always been there. Go figure. I have a bunch of other non Apple devices that don't have the same limitation. Weird, eh?

I remember being able to easily copy music on and off a friend's iPod... one of the originals, with a firewire port. So, no, it hasn't always been there. Plus, here http://www.wired.com/2015/11/itunes-alternatives/ you'll read That changed with iTunes 4.0 in 2003. “You got the music store, and that was awesome,” he says. But the iTunes Store introduced a new set of concerns and UI decisions. To prevent piracy, Apple made it impossible to move music from an iPod or iPhones or iPad back to a computer.

P.s. Even if a music publisher that didn't want DRM, Apple for years prevented you from opting out of FairPlay on your own content. Again, this is an Apple issue, why else would Apple make all publishers use DRM? I'd switch over to eMusic and the same music would be DRM free (from the small guys, all DRM free well before Apple).

I ran into this same issue at my former employer. The issue is both a logistical and technical one. It was simply much easier to make everyone follow the same process. And if a bunch required something, they all got it. Apple did it simply to make it easier for themselves.