"The Geography of U.S. Gun Violence"

[Ted King]

A couple of times recently people have pointed out the (sub?)cultural aspects of gun violence. A couple of days ago I listened to an NPR segment that addresses it (just under 6 minutes long):

https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2023/05/...onal-rates

The segment refers to a study done by the Nationhood Lab:

https://www.nationhoodlab.org/about-the-nationhood-lab/

[snippets - it's a very long article]

There are a lot of graphics - here is a general one:

But what’s less well appreciated is how much the incidence of deadly violence generally – and gun violence in particular – varies by region. It’s as if we live in separate countries, some of which have gun violence profiles that look like Canada’s, others that resemble the Philippines, Panama, or Peru. And the reasons for this go back centuries, part and parcel of dominant cultural heritages laid down by the rival colonial projects that spread across our continent in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. Reducing levels of deadly violence in the U.S. won’t be easy, but understanding the nature of the problem is an essential first step.
- - -
In a classic 1993 study the social psychologist Richard Nisbett of the University of Michigan, noted that regions initially “settled by sober Puritans, Quakers and Dutch farmer-artisans”—that is, Yankeedom, the Midlands and New Netherland—were organized around a yeoman agricultural economy that rewarded “quiet, cooperative citizenship, with each individual being capable of uniting for the common good.” The South—and by this he meant the nations I call Tidewater and Deep South—was settled by “swashbuckling Cavaliers of noble or landed gentry status, who took their values . . . from the knightly, medieval standards of manly honor and virtue.”
- - -
These southern cultures developed what anthropologists call a “culture of honor tradition” in which males treasure their honor and believed it can be diminished if an insult, slight or wrong were ignored. “In these cultures you have to establish yourself as tough and not to be messed with and the way to do that to let people know you’re not to be messed with on big matters is to show them you are not to be messed with in small matters either,” says University of Illinois-Urbana-Champaign psychologist Dov Cohen, who has researched various aspects of the phenomenon with Nisbett and others.
- - -
In these same regions this aggressive proclivity is coupled with the violent legacy of having been slave societies. Before 1865, enslaved people were kept in check through the threat and application of violence including whippings, torture, and often gruesome executions. For nearly a century thereafter, similar measures were used by the KKK, off-duty law enforcement, and thousands of ordinary white citizens to enforce a racial caste system. The Monroe and Florence Works Today Project mapped every lynching and deadly race riot in the U.S. between 1848 and 1964 and found over 90 percent of the incidents occurred in those three regions or El Norte, where Deep Southern “Anglos” enforced a caste system on the region’s Hispanic majority. In places with a legacy of lynching — which is only now starting to pass out of living memory – SUNY-Albany sociologist Steven Messner and two colleagues found a significant increase one type of homicide, the argument-related killing of Blacks by whites, that isn’t explained by other factors.

By contrast, the Yankee and Midland cultural legacies featured factors that dampened deadly violence by individuals. The Puritan founders of Yankeedom promoted self-doubt and self-restraint, and their Unitarian and Congregational spiritual descendants believed vengeance would not receive the approval of an all-knowing God (though there were plenty of loopholes in regards to indigenous people and others regarded as being outside the community.) This region was the center of the 19th-century death penalty reform movement, which began eliminating capital punishment for burglary, robbery, sodomy and other nonlethal crimes, and today none of the states it controls permit executions save New Hampshire, which hasn’t killed a person since 1939. The Midlands were founded by pacifist Quakers and attracted likeminded emigrants who set the cultural tone: Mennonites, Amish, Moravians, German Lutheran pietists and others who believed violence in any form was unacceptable.

[Acer]

"The Midlands were founded by pacifist Quakers and attracted likeminded emigrants who set the cultural tone: Mennonites, Amish, Moravians, German Lutheran pietists and others who believed violence in any form was unacceptable."

Shout-out to my peeps.

[SDGuy]

Ted King wrote:
...the incidence of deadly violence generally – and gun violence in particular – varies by region. It’s as if we live in separate countries...Reducing levels of deadly violence in the U.S. won’t be easy, but understanding the nature of the problem is an essential first step...

:agree:
That's part of the reason why I have to laugh at posters who look at the statistics of the United States as an aggregate. Given that this country is a republic of 50 separate States, each with its own laws and regulations (as well as cultures/demographics - as noted), trying to compare this entire country to smaller countries (that have population totals less than a single State of the U.S.) is pointless.

The wisdom of the republic system of government is that each State can craft laws suited to their region, and conditions within that region - given broad guidelines by the Constitution.

If we ignored local differences, and just blindly decided that what works in one place would work everywhere, then by that logic in order to minimize illegal killings (i.e. homicides), every State should just adopt the laws of New Hampshire verbatim (per the CDC; visualized here).

I have a feeling that many folks would have a problem with that, yet if you look at just the statistics, those laws demonstratably work, and work well (a homicide rate nearly half of the next nearest State, 0.90/100K vs 1.60/100K).

[Lemon Drop]

A fascinating study, here is the link to the full article:

https://www.nationhoodlab.org/the-geogra...-violence/

Haven't finished it yet, but this jumps out for me

"The Deep South is the most dangerous large region in almost every respect, except if you are African-American, where it becomes one of the safer regions on a per capita basis."

I've heard this used as one reason for Black Americans to reverse migrate back to the South: less violence.

Yes white southern men love their handguns and keep them handy in the house and in the truck, and we all know that having that gun means somebody is gonna use it. And when there is so much gun violence around you, you think you need that gun. Vicious cycle, requires regulatory intervention on the federal AND state levels. (Sorry SDGuy, but dispite regional differences we do need federal help with guns. There ARE universal laws that would help.

And this is not about huntiing. Plenty of people in the "safe" northern parts of the country hunt.

[SDGuy]

Lemon Drop wrote:
...dispite regional differences we do need federal help with guns. There ARE universal laws that would help...

:agree:

I think the open question is what form that help should take.
Off the top of my head, and hardly all-inclusive:
Since all Firearms Dealers are Federally licensed, I'd start with all firearms transactions must go through a Firearms Dealer (with a NICS check).

Another easy thing to do (IMHO) would be to define a "firearm" to include whatever component contains the chamber. For now, manufacturing that part at home is out of reach of ordinary folks (for better, or worse, though - I have a feeling that will change over the coming decades. When that happens, it will not be a good thing, and I have a feeling at that point firearms proliferation will become an intractable problem).

On the other (human) side of the equation - I think the Federal government can offer financial help to address both mental health treatment, as well as something to discourage those DAs that are prone to allow violent crimes be treated as misdemeanors (and thus avoiding a potential ding during a NICS check).

[Ted King]

Lemon Drop wrote:
A fascinating study, here is the link to the full article:

https://www.nationhoodlab.org/the-geogra...-violence/

Oops. I looked up info on Nationhood Lab and accidentally linked to that rather than the article. Thanks for the correction.

If I remember what I heard on the NPR show, the guest said that contrary to what a lot of MAGA believers like to think (the guest didn't put it terms of MAGA believers - that is my spin), in terms of gun violence New York City is not only not a hellhole, it is one of the very safest places you can live in the United States.

[Racer X]

Ted King wrote:
[quote=Lemon Drop]
A fascinating study, here is the link to the full article:

https://www.nationhoodlab.org/the-geogra...-violence/

Oops. I looked up info on Nationhood Lab and accidentally linked to that rather than the article. Thanks for the correction.

If I remember what I heard on the NPR show, the guest said that contrary to what a lot of MAGA believers like to think (the guest didn't put it terms of MAGA believers - that is my spin), in terms of gun violence New York City is not only not a hellhole, it is one of the very safest places you can live in the United States.
I would absolutely love to hear how NYC is so safe. Never been there, so I have no real opinion. I'm not refuting it, but I'd love to hear how one side got it so wrong.

[Racer X]

SDGuy wrote:
[quote=Lemon Drop]
...dispite regional differences we do need federal help with guns. There ARE universal laws that would help...

:agree:

I think the open question is what form that help should take.
Off the top of my head, and hardly all-inclusive:
Since all Firearms Dealers are Federally licensed, I'd start with all firearms transactions must go through a Firearms Dealer (with a NICS check).

Another easy thing to do (IMHO) would be to define a "firearm" to include whatever component contains the chamber. For now, manufacturing that part at home is out of reach of ordinary folks (for better, or worse, though - I have a feeling that will change over the coming decades. When that happens, it will not be a good thing, and I have a feeling at that point firearms proliferation will become an intractable problem).

On the other (human) side of the equation - I think the Federal government can offer financial help to address both mental health treatment, as well as something to discourage those DAs that are prone to allow violent crimes be treated as misdemeanors (and thus avoiding a potential ding during a NICS check).
for any meaningful discusion, it is crucial to understand and acknowledge that a gun dealer is federally licensed by the ATF. If someone engaging in the business of selling firearms isn't licensed, they aren't a gun dealer. They are just someone selling illegal goods. There are dealers breaking the law in various ways, they just haven't gotten caught yet.

[mattkime]

Smote wrote: I'm not refuting it, but I'd love to hear how one side got it so wrong.

How long were you in a coma?

[Racer X]

mattkime wrote:
[quote=Smote]I'm not refuting it, but I'd love to hear how one side got it so wrong.

How long were you in a coma?
that is an unkind thing to say. I don't recall attacking you, other than to post a cite from the ATF refuting your obvious ignorance on automatic weapons ownership. And cannons, and tanks I believe. BTW, flamethrowers are legal and comppletely unregulated.

With an FFL and a yearly SOT tax of $500, I can legally manufacture all the "machine guns" I want.